[mydlyfkryzis]

As noted, "in the past".... not so true anymore. There is a glut of used H-Ds on the market - a lot of them barely broken in. Check Cycletrader or Craigslist, and you'll find a bunch of them at very low prices, and many of them have been listed for a long time with no buyer. It's reflection of the primary demographic of H-D..... OLD guys.

There is also a glut of New Harleys on the market. They are pricing themselves out of the market.

 

[Fast_Jimmy]

As noted, "in the past".... not so true anymore. There is a glut of used H-Ds on the market - a lot of them barely broken in. Check Cycletrader or Craigslist, and you'll find a bunch of them at very low prices, and many of them have been listed for a long time with no buyer. It's reflection of the primary demographic of H-D..... OLD guys.

Likely true for some models, particularly the Liquid cooled sport twins. However, clean big twin examples of what I wanted were few and far between. The key contributor to loss of value is being in poor condition or excessive/poorly executed modifications. Clean used examples were not cheap.

Along with overpriced and behind the times with their design.

I get that you don't like HD, but many do. Crapping on them constantly makes you sound a little childish.

 

[wwb]

....... Clean used examples were not cheap......

Don't know what part of the country you're from, but I'm right in the heart of H-D country, and regardless of model, the only ones that are selling are selling at near give-away prices. Anything listed, regardless of model, has to sell cheap or just stays listed "for sale".... some for almost a year with no buyer.

 

[Unkle Krusty]

There are times when we must admit, that the valuable asset, is in fact a liability.
I have found no takers for my diesel engine. I will give it away. So far there are no replies to my adds for the XS1100.
I sense a dramatic price reduction coming soon. This realization, is always difficult, because we remember well, that when we want anything, it is a lot of money.

 

[Steadfastly]

Likely true for some models, particularly the Liquid cooled sport twins. However, clean big twin examples of what I wanted were few and far between. The key contributor to loss of value is being in poor condition or excessive/poorly executed modifications. Clean used examples were not cheap.



I get that you don't like HD, but many do. Crapping on them constantly makes you sound a little childish.

Hey bud, I don't like Harley motorcycles for the reasons I listed. I'm not "crapping" on them. I am just stating facts that everyone knows. You can Google this stuff and it will tell you exactly what I posted. I am not a "brand" guy but a guy who wants the best bike for his money. The top most reliable bikes consistently are the big four Japanese mfrs. If Harley made those kind of bikes for that kind of money, guess what I would be buying? Their sales figures are going down every years (Google it) and it looks like they may not be around before long.

As for the quality of their bikes, I think they have a good one, the Pan American. If I was looking for that style bike, I would certainly give that one a serious consideration...if it was competitively priced.

BTW, I am not the only one who sees this. See post #23. I am just not one to sugar coat things and call a spade a spade not matter what name is on the machine.

 

[Fast_Jimmy]

Hey bud, I don't like Harley motorcycles for the reasons I listed. I'm not "crapping" on them. I am just stating facts that everyone knows. You can Google this stuff and it will tell you exactly what I posted. I am not a "brand" guy but a guy who wants the best bike for his money. The top most reliable bikes consistently are the big four Japanese mfrs. If Harley made those kind of bikes for that kind of money, guess what I would be buying? Their sales figures are going down every years (Google it) and it looks like they may not be around before long.

As for the quality of their bikes, I think they have a good one, the Pan American. If I was looking for that style bike, I would certainly give that one a serious consideration...if it was competitively priced.

BTW, I am not the only one who sees this. See post #23. I am just not one to sugar coat things and call a spade a spade not matter what name is on the machine.

You remarked "Along with overpriced and behind the times with their design. ". If you think those are 'facts' instead of your subjective claims, then you're just another reply-guy stirring things up. I don't usually see other long-time members making such obnoxious statements towards what people ride, you are starting to stand out just a little bit like a sore thumb- problematic I'd say given how few people actually post here. Post #23 was a more legitimate statement of 'facts' and I noted that the evidence I've seen doesn't support it.

Don't worry, though- you just keep on 'keepin it real' if it gives you some sort of satisfaction to act like that.

 

[Steadfastly]

You remarked "Along with overpriced and behind the times with their design. ". If you think those are 'facts' instead of your subjective claims, then you're just another reply-guy stirring things up. I don't usually see other long-time members making such obnoxious statements towards what people ride, you are starting to stand out just a little bit like a sore thumb- problematic I'd say given how few people actually post here. Post #23 was a more legitimate statement of 'facts' and I noted that the evidence I've seen doesn't support it.

Don't worry, though- you just keep on 'keepin it real' if it gives you some sort of satisfaction to act like that.

Have it your way and enjoy your ride.

 

[CanadaJack]

Don't know what part of the country you're from, but I'm right in the heart of H-D country, and regardless of model, the only ones that are selling are selling at near give-away prices. Anything listed, regardless of model, has to sell cheap or just stays listed "for sale".... some for almost a year with no buyer.

Just for fun I looked at Kijiji Alberta in the used Harley section and some of the asking prices were crazy, people asking 20 some thousand for 10 year old deckers, wow! Granted , a lot of them were low milers but that's still a chunk of change. I think a lot of guys spent good money on the bike then did a bunch of add-ons and are trying to recoup some of that money. Good luck to them!

 

[mydlyfkryzis]

Of course, when you look at Actual numbers, Harley is only doing well on the small bikes made in India. US Harley is slowly sinking.

Motorcycles Data

Harley-Davidson global sales performance disappoints. global sales in 2023 declined at 168.050 (-5.0%), although almost positive data from the partnership recently started up in India.
McD tracks new vehicles registrations across the World (over 85 countries), reporting data on calendar year. When you wish to compare data reported by us to those declared by the manufacturers, consider they usually report their “sales” (vehicles invoiced), which are usually different from “registrations”, accordingly with their fiscal year split.

Harley-Davidson Global Registrations Trend and Performance
Once upon a time……..Harley-Davidson was market leader and brand icon. It was only near 10 years ago.

In 2014 Harley-Davidson global sales were 329.776 and no one could imagine that – ten years later – sales were declining by the half.

Sales declined for sixth consecutive years until the 2020. Then in 2021 the recovery was temporary before the trend was back down in 2022 and – unfortunately – in 2023.

Although a strong recovery in India, where production and distribution have been delegated to a local partner, with sales up 1.740%, global sales in 2023 declined at 168.050 (-5.0%), one of the worse performance among the Top 20 world manufacturers.

In North America sales lost is 9.9%, while in Europe is 8.8% and in Latam is 14.7%.

Good news only from ASEAN (+1.1%) and Pacific (+2.4%) regions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On another site I read that the 2024 Harleys are lower priced than similar 2023 models. It leaves dealers with year old motorcycles that are higher priced than the newest ones.

Good or bad, Harley is suffering. They are expensive bikes, whether you like them or not. A top tier, loaded BMW, an expensive marque, is still more than 25% less expensive than top tier Harley's.

So those who can afford a NEW Harley, are likely more about status of cost, rather than hard core riders. The cheapest Harley right now is the Nightster at $11,999 starting price. The 2023 Nightster is $13,999 MSRP. If you walk into a Harley Dealer, which one would you pick.

At $12,000, the Nightster has quite a bit of competition for those dollars. The Kawasaki Vulcan V-twin top tier Vulcan 900 Classic LT is MSRP $10,399, The entry model Classic is $9,399. You get quite a bit bike for $2500 less.

So if you prefer V-twin power, the best equivalent Kawasaki is $2500 cheaper then the base Nightster. Compare the Top tier Kawa Vulcan 900 at $10,399 to the high tier 2024 Nightster at $13,499, and the difference is over $3000. 3 grand buys a few nice accessories too.

I am not saying the Kawa is better than the Harley, or vice a versa, but they are very similar bikes. I don't prefer V-twin bikes myself, but I do see the appeal. I know where my limited $ would go if I was comparing Harley Nightster to Vulcan 900 though.

The pricing I listed was from the Harley-Davidson Site and the Kawasaki site. I did not invent them. Anyone can verify the accuracy.

My opinion? Harley's are not bad bikes. They compete feature wise with other bikes in that market. If they were priced competitively, I believe they would sell more. I am sure there will always be a market for Harley's, but I am not sure how viable from a business model perspective the company will remain.

 

[Steadfastly]

The lower percentage the higher the reliability. As always, the top four are the Japanese bikes.

Most Reliable Motorcycle Brands

Who knew Honda wasn't Number 1?

www.topspeed.com

 

[Unkle Krusty]

Chatted with a guy today that runs a site for folks to advertise their bikes for sale.
He had a lot of positive things to say about the new 650 Royal Enfield. I had been looking at one earlier, but the bike shop was closed. Neither of us had any nice things to say about the 350 and 500 RE bikes. Underpowered compared to the others.

 

[Fast_Jimmy]

Of course, when you look at Actual numbers, Harley is only doing well on the small bikes made in India. US Harley is slowly sinking.

Motorcycles Data

Harley-Davidson global sales performance disappoints. global sales in 2023 declined at 168.050 (-5.0%), although almost positive data from the partnership recently started up in India.
McD tracks new vehicles registrations across the World (over 85 countries), reporting data on calendar year. When you wish to compare data reported by us to those declared by the manufacturers, consider they usually report their “sales” (vehicles invoiced), which are usually different from “registrations”, accordingly with their fiscal year split.

Harley-Davidson Global Registrations Trend and Performance
Once upon a time……..Harley-Davidson was market leader and brand icon. It was only near 10 years ago.

In 2014 Harley-Davidson global sales were 329.776 and no one could imagine that – ten years later – sales were declining by the half.

Sales declined for sixth consecutive years until the 2020. Then in 2021 the recovery was temporary before the trend was back down in 2022 and – unfortunately – in 2023.

Although a strong recovery in India, where production and distribution have been delegated to a local partner, with sales up 1.740%, global sales in 2023 declined at 168.050 (-5.0%), one of the worse performance among the Top 20 world manufacturers.

In North America sales lost is 9.9%, while in Europe is 8.8% and in Latam is 14.7%.

Good news only from ASEAN (+1.1%) and Pacific (+2.4%) regions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On another site I read that the 2024 Harleys are lower priced than similar 2023 models. It leaves dealers with year old motorcycles that are higher priced than the newest ones.

Good or bad, Harley is suffering. They are expensive bikes, whether you like them or not. A top tier, loaded BMW, an expensive marque, is still more than 25% less expensive than top tier Harley's.

So those who can afford a NEW Harley, are likely more about status of cost, rather than hard core riders. The cheapest Harley right now is the Nightster at $11,999 starting price. The 2023 Nightster is $13,999 MSRP. If you walk into a Harley Dealer, which one would you pick.

At $12,000, the Nightster has quite a bit of competition for those dollars. The Kawasaki Vulcan V-twin top tier Vulcan 900 Classic LT is MSRP $10,399, The entry model Classic is $9,399. You get quite a bit bike for $2500 less.

So if you prefer V-twin power, the best equivalent Kawasaki is $2500 cheaper then the base Nightster. Compare the Top tier Kawa Vulcan 900 at $10,399 to the high tier 2024 Nightster at $13,499, and the difference is over $3000. 3 grand buys a few nice accessories too.

I am not saying the Kawa is better than the Harley, or vice a versa, but they are very similar bikes. I don't prefer V-twin bikes myself, but I do see the appeal. I know where my limited $ would go if I was comparing Harley Nightster to Vulcan 900 though.

The pricing I listed was from the Harley-Davidson Site and the Kawasaki site. I did not invent them. Anyone can verify the accuracy.

My opinion? Harley's are not bad bikes. They compete feature wise with other bikes in that market. If they were priced competitively, I believe they would sell more. I am sure there will always be a market for Harley's, but I am not sure how viable from a business model perspective the company will remain.

The Nightster outpowers the Vulcan 900 by 40 horsepower and has significantly better handling and technology? The Honda Rebel 1100 is definitely in the game, same with the Suzuki M109R, but most of the rest of the Japanese cruisers are throwbacks and roughly competitive with the 883 sportster. The Vulcan S has a decent parallel twin throwing out around 65 HP so it's a good value but still not directly comparable.

 

[Steadfastly]

The Nightster outpowers the Vulcan 900 by 40 horsepower and has significantly better handling and technology? The Honda Rebel 1100 is definitely in the game, same with the Suzuki M109R, but most of the rest of the Japanese cruisers are throwbacks and roughly competitive with the 883 sportster. The Vulcan S has a decent parallel twin throwing out around 65 HP so it's a good value but still not directly comparable.

You forgot price. You may be willing to pay $7000.00 for the Harley but very few will. That is the biggest problem killing Harley sales and unless they get competitive, they will continue losing market share.

Last year they did a little more than $5 billion in sales worldwide. Their debt is over $7 billion. That does not bode well considering the average age for Harley buyers is 47 years old. It doesn't take a genius to see that they are in big trouble.

 

[wwb]

...... That does not bode well considering the average age for Harley buyers is 47 years old. ........

Not sure where that figure came from, but I have my doubts.

I would have guessed a LOT older than that. At an average of 47, for every 70 year-old you see on a Harley, you would need to see a 24 year-old. I see an awful lot of 50+ riders on Harleys, but darn few under 40. The most common age seems to be 60+ or even 70+.

 

[mydlyfkryzis]

The Nightster outpowers the Vulcan 900 by 40 horsepower and has significantly better handling and technology? The Honda Rebel 1100 is definitely in the game, same with the Suzuki M109R, but most of the rest of the Japanese cruisers are throwbacks and roughly competitive with the 883 sportster. The Vulcan S has a decent parallel twin throwing out around 65 HP so it's a good value but still not directly comparable.

I guess people just don't want the better bike as much. I picked the vulcan as a V-twin and similar displacement. If you want to consider the Nightster as a sports bike, as Harley Does, then it is way overpriced for the sports market. Plenty of new bikes with better handling, more power, faster all around if you avoid the V-twin configuration. Nightster is not a bad motorcycle. If I had 12G for a new bike, the Nightster isn't even on my long list. A Yamaha 2024 MT-09 at $10,999 has better handling faster, 30 more HP than Nightster. Still leaves me $1000 for farkles. While Harley considers the Nightster a sports bike, it still has a feet forward riding position, ala cruiser, so who are they targeting. The young Sports bike crown isn't interested in a cruiser, the Cruiser crowd ain't interested in a sports bike. That is part of Harley's problem. Now there Indian 400CC bikes look interesting, but the Big V-Twin is playing catch-up.

 

[DannoXYZ]

They should've kept up with V-Rod...

 

[ChuteTheMall]

...{snip}...
Harley-Davidson Global Registrations Trend and Performance
Once upon a time……..Harley-Davidson was market leader and brand icon. It was only near 10 years ago.

In 2014 Harley-Davidson global sales were 329.776 and no one could imagine that – ten years later – sales were declining by the half.....
...{snip}...

Is it just a coincidence that Sons Of Anarchy had it's 6th and final season in 2014?
Product placement.

 

[wwb]

They should've kept up with V-Rod...

A closer look reveals a LOT of suspicious similarities between the old V-Rod engine and the "new" Revolution Max engine in the Pan America. The V-Rod, even though I'm no fan of a V-twin, was an impressive engine.... but that style of "cruiser" bike? No way.

 

[Fast_Jimmy]

I guess people just don't want the better bike as much. I picked the vulcan as a V-twin and similar displacement. If you want to consider the Nightster as a sports bike, as Harley Does, then it is way overpriced for the sports market. Plenty of new bikes with better handling, more power, faster all around if you avoid the V-twin configuration. Nightster is not a bad motorcycle. If I had 12G for a new bike, the Nightster isn't even on my long list. A Yamaha 2024 MT-09 at $10,999 has better handling faster, 30 more HP than Nightster. Still leaves me $1000 for farkles. While Harley considers the Nightster a sports bike, it still has a feet forward riding position, ala cruiser, so who are they targeting. The young Sports bike crown isn't interested in a cruiser, the Cruiser crowd ain't interested in a sports bike. That is part of Harley's problem. Now there Indian 400CC bikes look interesting, but the Big V-Twin is playing catch-up.

The MT-09 is a great value and much faster than the Nightster but it is not a cruiser and I doubt people shopping the Nightster/Rebel 1100/Sportster S/BMW R12/MT109R are even looking at that bike. The Nightster special also offers a great screen and I like the keyless start options but as has been noted, Harley's still are not cheap and I do see a lot of Nightsters and even more Sportster S models still new at the local dealership. If the Sportster S had a proper rear suspension, I may have considered it.

As far as Harley profitability, they made over 2 Billion in Gross profit in 2023 and their long term debt is around 5 Billion so they are solvent and still the largest seller by unit of motorcycles in the U.S. That said, they do have their challenges and may yet fall out of the top spot in the U.S, although it will take quite a bit longer to lose the top sales position by dollar amount. I see their challenges as more marketing than technological.

Their dealers are a bit of a S***show when it comes to sales tactics and their whole idea of lower sales at higher margins strikes me as the wrong approach. Still, they do have models like the Nightster and Softail Standard so you can get into either of their main powerplant choices relatively cheaply.

Harley-Davidson Gross Profit 2010-2023 | HOG | MacroTrends

 

[Steadfastly]

Not sure where that figure came from, but I have my doubts.

I would have guessed a LOT older than that. At an average of 47, for every 70 year-old you see on a Harley, you would need to see a 24 year-old. I see an awful lot of 50+ riders on Harleys, but darn few under 40. The most common age seems to be 60+ or even 70+.

I do see some younger than 60-70 year old guys riding Harleys but a few years ago and still doing so, Harley targeted woman riders and a lot of younger woman bit into the marketing, That likely brought down the average age. It also might be based on "when" they bought the bike. They may have bought it in their 40's and are now approaching 60 or bought it in the 50's and are no approaching 70. Of course, I am just speculating. Figures can quite easily be skewed.

As for market share, Harley had 50% in 1960. The now have only 20%. The other 80% is owned mostly by the Japanese bikes with Honda at 19.9%, Yamaha at 12.5%, Kawasaki at 11.7% an Suzuki at 5%.