Video loaded 9 minutes in, you need to back it up.

 

I know doing this thread will out me as a novice (or remove any doubt)...

I'm driven motorcycles around town about 700 miles and apparently I've been doing it without counter steering...

We had a RAGING thread about this a little while back with some VERY experienced riders arguing "counter steering vs. "body English" to turn the bike, so it is NOT a matter of being a novice. You are good company re: questioning this arcane art!

This thread was particularly "entertaining" - https://www.motorcycleforum.com/threads/counter-steering-im-a-little-embarassed.252360/ - I found post #13 to be most succinct and logical.

 

We had a RAGING thread about this a little while back...

...............

We've talked about counter steering a few times. I guess I was counter steering before I knew there was a name for it. I thought I was just steering the bike. I may have been doing it with my three speed bicycle as a child, but don't remember. If I pedaled hard enough that bicycle would go pretty fast. Apparently I've been a gear head from the get go...

S F

 

Yeah, I agree. You should read read that thread. I don't think we want to rehash the issue.

 

I rode bicycles for years, did 3,000 miles on a bicycle one year.
I've put about 500 miles on my motorcycle and another ~200 on my wife's.
...

I don't get why push the left handle bar to the right initially to go left, it is the opposite of the direction of the turn.
...

I definitely have not been doing that on the motorcycle or bicycle.
I have not been pushing the handle bar in the opposite direction of the direction I want to turn; I had to think about it to do it.

...
Help me understand the when and/or why of counter steering because this novice doesn't get it and I'd like to eventually move beyond novice.

CDW4me, I'm guessing while you
have not been consciously doing
the counter steering technique

you've been doing it unconsciously probably labeling it in your mind with the label of "leaning." You lean left therefore your bike turns left, but what's actually happening is when you lean left you are putting forward pressure on the left handlebar grip.

( Which would turn the whole handlebar to the right if you were going a lower speed but above something like 15 miles an hour, the handlebar doesn't turn visibly. It's imperceptible.)

 

I have rode some tupe 2 wheel scooter/ motorcycle since was 12 yo. I'm 72 now. You argue counter steering all you want to. I went riding my motorcycle the other day and tried counter steering (note I said tried) and it works. But I haver NEVER counter steered before then and I dint what you say about it thar was my FIRST time. I had to continously push the handle bar to make it happen. Then I went back the opposite way WITHOUT counter steering. I've heard some say your doing it don't realize it. WRONG I had to think about it to do it. It doesn't happen for me automatically.

 

FWIW, a few times when I was approaching a stop sign on a wide street, with no other traffic around, I have experimented with riding directly on the yellow center line dividing the lanes of the road, taking my hands off the handlebars, and using body-English and / or pressure on the tank and foot pegs to induce a turn. My goal was to swerve several feet to one side or the other and then straighten out, and then repeat it in the other direction.

I've only tried the couple times but the result was that it was slow and nowhere near as responsive as counter steering.

 

We had a RAGING thread about this a little while back with some VERY experienced riders arguing "counter steering vs. "body English" to turn the bike, so it is NOT a matter of being a novice. You are good company re: questioning this arcane art!

This thread was particularly "entertaining" - https://www.motorcycleforum.com/threads/counter-steering-im-a-little-embarassed.252360/ - I found post #13 to be most succinct and logical.

I got the pic in OP from that thread; I still don't understand how / when it is advantageous.
See below.

CDW4me, I'm guessing while you
have not been consciously doing
the counter steering technique

you've been doing it unconsciously probably labeling it in your mind with the label of "leaning." You lean left therefore your bike turns left, but what's actually happening is when you lean left you are putting forward pressure on the left handlebar grip.

( Which would turn the whole handlebar to the right if you were going a lower speed but above something like 15 miles an hour, the handlebar doesn't turn visibly. It's imperceptible.)

Maybe I'm doing something unconscious?

Example in OP from yesterday illustrated. (I'm no artist)
I'm going to turn right into the pizza parking lot.
I don't understand how initially pushing the handlebar with my right hand making the front wheel temporarily turn the opposite direction (left) from the direction I'm about to turn is beneficial.
How does my turn get better by doing that counter steer rather than just turn the handlebar to the right?
It seems that it would take a conscious effort to initially push the opposite direction of the direction I intend to turn.

 

When you push the right handlebar you make the bike lean to the right. It is the lean that make you turn.

Maybe I'm doing something unconscious?

Yes bicycles are tricky because they require so little force to steer, that you may not be aware of actual inputs. If you put paint on bicycle tyre to mark its path, you’ll find that front tyre carves a path away from curve at beginning of turn.

There‘s TWO types of steering involved.

1. low speed when bike is vertical requires aiming into turn like car. This is like when you’re going 5-10mph and turning into pizza parking lot. Or trolling around parking lots at low speed where bike stays vertical.

2. higher speeds +20mph when leaning is used, requires countresteering to initiate lean. It‘s the lean that causes bike to turn, not the steering. Once desired lean angle is achieved, steering is returned to centre to maintain same lean angle. Coming out of corner, steering is aimed into corner to straighten up bike (making it lean oppositely, or reduce angle).

When tyre is leaned over, it’s camber thrust that actually makes tyre roll in curved path. Try tossing single tyre (or donut) by itself so it rolls on its own. When vertical, it rolls in straight line. When leaned over, it rolls in curved path.

ScienceDirect - camber thrust
Reddit - F1techincal - tyre camber

When leaned over, edge of tyre with shorter radius rolls shorter path than centre with larger radius.

It’s shifting between streering strategy #1 to #2 at around 10-15mph that causes most confusion.

One exercise I find really helps is riding one-handed at 25-50mph in mountain twisties when I’m stuck behind tourist traffic. This removes two-armed pushing motion that cancels each other out and hides countresteering. With just right hand on bars, you really get that you have to push left to lean right and turn right. Conversely, you really have to yank bars right to lean left and turn left.

 

When you push the right handlebar you make the bike lean to the right. It is the lean that make you turn.

When I first learned about countersteering I had to exert some mental effort to consciously do it. After a short while it became second nature. Now the only time I think about it is when I've gone a little too hot into a curve and have to remind myself to push more on the inside handlebar. A little push and voila, the bike turns into the curve easy peasy.

 

If you go to an empty lot, it's easy to set up a slow vs. fast turn exercise. This is an interesting explanation...

 

 

Me too.

 

Here’s an extreme example of how steering generates bike lean to opposite side.

1. Both these riders went into left turn little too fast and front end slid out.

2. Corrective action is to steer left INTO left corner! Huh what!@#%!! Wouldn’t that make bike corner even more to left and crash?!! Not if you look at it from viewpoint of steering generates opposite lean. Steering LEFT in this case makes bike LEAN TO RIGHT.

Since they’re already leaning left, making bike lean to right reduces its lean angle and straightens it up. Vertical tyre rolls in straight line and no longer tries to generate cornering forces. This reduces traction requirements at contact patch and tyre no longer slides! Of course, going in straight line out of corner means you’re doing some off-roading on side of track. But that’s better than trying to maintain curve and crashing!

 

This is very good! I’ll expand on this by adding:

• front tyre contact patch on ground
• rear tyre contact patch on ground
• line connecting front & rear contact patches
• center of gravity of bike+rider CoG

This will help you understand why bike leans to opposite direction from steering angle. To work into that, let’s use more simplisic example where there’s no steering angle. Just a line and CoG of rider above it.

Let’s say you’re sitting on 2m log in lake. You’re perfectly balanced on top of log and everything’s stable. You lean your upper body to left so your CoG shift away from being centred over axis of log. What happens?

 

On another thread, most riders are reporting that their reaction to a mishap, or riding in general, is automatic.
As in years of riding, and realizing that it is a reaction to what the bike is doing, becomes an auto response.
At least that is how I am interpreting the replies.
Generally that does not leave a lot of time, to get out the clip board and draw diagrams.
I am using others response to the question here, as newbies are not much interested in listening to the guys that go fast.
I could quote an ex US world champion, but as I have been informed, his message is wrong.
Anyway, this push pull thing is fine as a learning process, but if you want to advance, you need to expand your horizons ( learning curve ) Otherwise you get to the stage. Do I need to? CRASH. One of the messages above suggested working on a exit strategy. This make a lot more sense to me.

Too. If the tyres have lost adhesion, from a bit too much G forces applied too soon. CRASH is next on the list.
Some guys, and a very small number, have the ability to save from a slide. Marc Marque, and Pedro Acosta come to mind.
But these are two of the very best riders in the world. For the rest of us, get familiar with CRASH.
A really good plan IMO is to practice in the dirt, and experience what it is like to have a front or back wheel slide out from under the bike.
A little bit of knowledge is dangerous, is what I was told in my early days of learning.
Now folks with a little bit of knowledge, can join a group and spread it.
That does not impress me much. But Acosta does. Portugal tomorrow.

 

When you push the right handlebar you make the bike lean to the right. It is the lean that make you turn.

When I first learned about countersteering I had to exert some mental effort to consciously do it. After a short while it became second nature. Now the only time I think about it is when I've gone a little too hot into a curve and have to remind myself to push more on the inside handlebar. A little push and voila, the bike turns into the curve easy peasy.

Maybe this is a a curve, twisty road versus turn in city traffic, "normal" driving strategy?

Here’s an extreme example of how steering generates bike lean to opposite side.

Steering LEFT in this case makes bike LEAN TO RIGHT.

Since they’re already leaning left, making bike lean to right reduces its lean angle and straightens it up. Vertical tyre rolls in straight line and no longer tries to generate cornering forces. This reduces traction requirements at contact patch and tyre no longer slides! Of course, going in straight line out of corner means you’re doing some off-roading on side of track. But that’s better thanand crashing!

In the video you posted at about 4:15 he says "destabilize" the bike.
I see the slow ~8 MPH counter steer prior to that, level II.

I still don't get:
How is it better to "destabilize" the motorcycle when making a turn by pushing initially making the front wheel point opposite of how you are turning initiating a "destabilize" rather than just turn the direction you want to go?

The guys on the track, that much lean.
Perspective: I have about 630 miles on this motorcycle, here is the foot peg:

If that peg scrapes the pavement I either dropped the bike or wrecked.

 

Maybe this is a a curve, twisty road versus turn in city traffic, "normal" driving strategy?



In the video you posted at about 4:15 he says "destabilize" the bike.
I see the slow ~8 MPH counter steer prior to that, level II.

I still don't get:
How is it better to "destabilize" the motorcycle when making a turn by pushing initially making the front wheel point opposite of how you are turning initiating a "destabilize" rather than just turn the direction you want to go?

[ This is a long one, travel at you own risk! ]


When they state "destabilize", it's in reference to the natural design of motorcycles to stabilize in a straight line. To get the bike to turn we have to destabilize that straight line stabilization and lean the bike.

All the magic happens in the front end geometry based on the rake and trail built into the steering head. Regardless of the methods, or combination of methods, we use to lean the bike, counter steering is in effect. If we have balanced forward motion to stabilize the bike (slow or fast) if we don't get the bike to lean, it will continue to be stabilized in a straight line. It is the geometry of the front steering head that helps provide for stabilizing the bike both in a straight line and in a turn. Without it there would be a lot of crashes. And that is exactly what happened in the early days as designers worked out how much geometry was necessary.

Put another tire on the ground, as in a trike with three wheels, and the steering changes, take a tire away as in a unicycle with one wheel and the steering changes. Take one tire off the ground, like on a motorcycle, either the front during a wheelie, or rear during a stoppie, and steering changes. Keep both tires of a motorcycle on the ground and to effectively make turns it require leaning and counter steer regardless of how we think we do it.

Most of the time, most of the riders think, or don't realize when their bike turns left the front wheel momentarily turned right to initiate the lean, and when they stopped the turn to go straight, the front wheel turned more into the turn to get the bike to stop leaning and travel in a straight line. It's a subtle counter angle and is easy to miss or realize.

Back to that magic in the front steering head and axle. How much rake and trail will determine how stabilized the bike is in a straight line and during lean. Cruiser and choppers aren't designed to go around tight turns fast, so they have more rake and trail making it more stabilized going straight. The more there is the more effort it takes to get the bike to lean for turns, but most of the turns cruiser make are big sweepers and slow speed parking lot turns, so the straight line stabilization is good for them.

Sport bikes are different. They still have rake and trail, but not as much. They are designed for tight turns at faster speeds. The less rake and trail the less effort it takes to get the bike to lean and they like the roads with lots of turns and lots of lean. Whether a large heavy cruiser or a small light sportbike, when they lean to turn, counter steering is in effect even if we don't consciously do it.

The counter part of counter steering is only used to initiate the lean, and when reducing the lean to recover from a turn. It doesn't turn or steer the bike, it adjust the lean. When we want to turn left we need to lean left. If we push forward of the left grip (the counter part of counter steering) the front angles to the right and the front end geometry forces the center of gravity to the right and the bike leans (falls) to the left. Once the proper amount of lean is established for the speed and radius of the turn counter steering has done it's job so we stop pushing (relax pressure) on the left grip (otherwise we will continue to increase lean until we crash!!). Some riders initiate lean by weight shifting, shifting their body various ways to change the center of gravity so the bike leans (falls) in the direction of the turn. Counter steering is in effect, but they need vary little or no pushing on the grips.

When we understand counter steering many riders think OK that is what is happening, but it is so subtle that I didn't realize it. Then they can ignore it or use it as a benefit, their choice.

BTW way when I reference rake and trail, I use it in general terms, there is a lot more to the design and relationship.

Now back to eating my popcorn!!

 

Good thought process, last two posts.
Learn to lean, do not be afraid of lean, load up the G forces gently, the counter steering will follow, in varying degrees.
For lighter bikes, sometimes and some corners, it is not noticeable. For heavier bikes, it is nearly always noticeable.
A lot of riders, are not comfortable with lean, so counter steering works for them.
Many old riders, had never heard the term, and somehow managed to ride. I first heard about it from another rider who had gone to a riding school. The rake and trail, as Eagle mentioned, gives the bikes a much different feel.
A bit freaky at first, for a bike that wants to turn, after a bit of lean is applied. Many have never been on a bike of this type.

 

Thank you Danno.
You said. " It is the leaning that causes the bike to turn, not the steering "
And I have tried to say in the past, the steering, in whatever form it takes, is a reaction to what happens in the corner.
There may be bumps, or dips, or a change in the bend.

But the heavy bikes do need to be muscled about. Or wrestled, is the term used by many.

 

My Yamaha YZF R3 is listed at 375# but swapping the muffler probably trimmed it to 365#
So, it takes less effort to turn a 365# motorcycle than one that is like 800# especially if we are comparing a sport bike to a cruiser.
I am / maybe sometimes shifting my body for turns; but, if I am pushing forward on the handlebar in a direction opposite of where I am turning it is very subtle and completely subconscious.
Perhaps that I am on a 365# sport bike and not (yet) attempting turns or curves at speed that is excessive for the turn or curve is a factor?

You stated an important point about motorcycle weight comparison.

But before that consider this. If you bolt the bars so they will not turn, get it started the bike will stabilize in a straight direction. If you shift your weight the bike will only change direction, that is turn, very little. You could fix your bike and try that experiment, but it would be easier to do a search for the No BS Bike created by Keith Cole, or here is the link
No BS Bike This does illustrate, but in all fairness, not completely. The little bit of directional change is caused by the front geometry and would eventually make a tighter turn. If the rider put more weight shift of body weight by what is referred to as 'hanging off' against the opposite leg on the tank, and were to do that in a purposeful motion (might call that more aggressive), the bike would lean more and turn more. But when we, hang off, we are shifting the center of gravity, for example if we move our mass weight to the left and apply the pressure of that weight shift against the right side of the tank with our right thigh (which also helps us from falling off), the balance is disrupted, the geometry of the front will shift the angle of the front wheel right momentarily (the counter part of counter steering). It's not much and as we are riding pretty difficult to look down and see it!

We can get the same amount of turn by sitting upright and center balance on the bike by initiating the lean using counter steering through the handle bars. It is probably common for riders who lean their upper body a little bit into the turn to unconsciously apply forward pressure on the inside bar (counter steering) and never notice it because his arms are still stretched out evenly as if riding in a straight line. Just one of the reason new riders should loosen up and relax their arms.

As for bike weight, I agree, the lighter the bike the easier it is to throw the balance off (lean) by shifting body weight. And, of course the heavier the bike the less effective it is. It's not only bike weight but also rider (load) weight. It's easier for a rider on a bicycle when the rider weighs several times the bicycles weight to disrupt the balance, than for a rider on a motorcycle that may weigh several time the riders weight. It's a lot easier for a heavy guy on a sport bike to throw the balance off than a little guy like me on a huge bagger! If we take a 300 pound sport bike to the twisties it is pretty joyful and easy to flick it around in the turns. Take an 800 pound cruiser to the same twisties at the same speed and it gets a lot tougher and harder to get it to turn and stay turned! It's a combination of weight and front end geometry. Not to mention the cruiser probably doesn't have the ground clearance necessary to get the lean required in the tight radius turns. (That doesn't mean some guys aren't racing big Harley twins on the track, they are and they are fast, but another subject).

BTW, setting all that steering stuff aside, there is another good reason we should consider shifting our weight to the inside of a turn, which you know is to reduce the lean angle in a turn. How much we body shift (if any) depends on our style of riding, our purpose of riding, and on the street it is mostly for safety.

My wife initially took the basic rider course on their motorcycle which was a Rebel 250 cruiser; she dropped the bike after completing one of the final tests and failed because of the drop. Before we went back to retest we bought her a Honda CBR300, in her opinion it was much easier to handle than the cruiser and she preferred the placement of the foot brake and gear shifter on the sport bike; she subsequently passed on the Honda CBR300.
I asked her if she thinks she is pushing the handle bar in the opposite direction of her intended turn and she looked at me like I'm nuts. However, if I am a novice she is so much more of one that I am comparatively like a pro racer so I'm not surprised with her response.

Congratulation on your wife passing the course and getting back on the horse (so to speak) even though it was a different horse. I would agree with her. I find it much easier to maneuver a sport type bike than a cruiser even though the little Rebel 250 isn't much of a cruiser! But, mostly it has to do with training and practice. For example the Motor Cops are great at maneuvering their big heavies in tight turns.


If we put all the design and geometry aside and just ride, UK's statement says it all.....

A bit freaky at first, for a bike that wants to turn, after a bit of lean is applied. Many have never been on a bike of this type.

Sport bikes like to lean, they like to turn, and most street riders never approach the maximum lean angle their bike is capable of. Maybe that's a good thing as they don't approach the edge, but leaning, at speed, is also what attracts some riders to the twisties and the tracks. As he said, "a bit freaky at first"!

 

Yes, modern bikes and tyres are extremely capable! I’d wager that 99.99% of riders would not be able to ride to limit of their equipment safely. Most crashes are caused by improper inputs (panic) and bikes ends up carving undesired line. But bike did exactly what rider requested, even if that meant going off the road and crashing!

 

True, peg-scraping occurs at different lean-angles for different models.

More sporty bikes like CBR600RR have rear-set and high-mounted pets that won’t scrape regardless of lean-angle. I’ll actually scrape boot on ground 1st.

Surprisingly, my ST1300 has plenty of clearance! Exhaust and side-cases have angled bottoms that match road-surface at max lean. Pegs grind right as tyres reach edges. Somebody did lots of testing on this bike!

Ninja 250 was originally designed as intro beginner bike with friendly ergos. So low forward pegs and large quiet exhaust canister that drag easily. I had to move pegs up and back, especially when using non-folding ones. Installed high-mounted muffler. And not just remove kickstand, but grind off kickstand-bracket as close to frame as possible!

 

Haven't watched this yet but it popped up on my list and this guy usually explains things pretty well...

 

Video touches on what I said before, "Maybe this is a a curve, twisty road versus turn in city traffic, "normal" driving strategy?"

8:25 - Try to change directions under power
8:38 - Turn while on the throttle
11:40 - Slower speed, less lean
12:30 - Turn while on the throttle

We bought the Honda Jan 27th and it was in town.
Bought the Yamaha Feb 5th and it was about an hour away on the interstate, two hours on backroads; I did not want to take the Interstate, took backroads, by the time I started home it was dark and I was worried about deer jumping out, drove very conservatively.

In the last two months I've put about 700 miles on motorcycles, the majority in town. Driving them around town is what I bought them for.

My wife and I went on backroad rides a couple times and she often goes 5 MPH under the speed limit on straight sections and really slows for a curve; I'm following her.
This area has deer and wild pigs, vegetation is right up to the road and prime area for an animal to run out with little warning. I wouldn't be driving assertively through there if I was by myself.
I'm more comfortable in town with the risk of traffic than I am with the risk of a deer because I've hit two deer driving trucks & Jeeps before and it sucks bigly; my wife had a van totaled by a deer.

In town, city, the speed limit is up to 45 MPH in some places but a lot of 30-35 MPH speed limits.
Much of the time the speed limit is more of a goal than a limit.
Wal-Mart is 10 miles away and it takes 25 minutes to get there.
I am not accelerating "on the throttle" so to speak turning into parking lots with lots of traffic.

Yes, I lean to facilitate turns, I get that, and my turns have improved over the last two months.

I'm going 35 MPH and intend to turn into a parking lot that is coming up on my right...
Put on turn signal, apply brake, downshift, lean to facilitate turn <--Okay
Take right hand and push handlebar to the left <--I don't think I'm doing that

 

Watching the diagrams and the videos for me doesn't do a whole lot. The diagrams are almost useless for me and the videos (the good ones) just prove to me it works. The best way is to go out in a parking lot (an empty one) and practice. Once you are comfortable, go out on the road and do it and keep practicing it on a regular basis.

 

Dido, as a newbie, that is just what I did this morning, and holy #$%#$!!!.... I didn't want to get off the bike, after practicing countersteering for 1 1/2 hrs I felt that I had total control of my turns regardless of the angle. MAN!!!! WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!

 

Fortnine did a good video on this recently:

He shows how 2 wheel single track vehicles are steered by countersteering, even at slow speeds it requires countersteering to initiate a lean, although it is so subtle we often do it automatically without realizing it, which is what is likely happening on your bicycle.

The below was my picture, the point of it was to show how "body lean/English/whatever" is in fact just a less efficient means of counter steering. When a bike is moving straight forward and the wheels are aligned pushing the left handlebar forward forces the steering neck pivot to angle the front tire out of alignment right, so the bike leans left, and you go left. Putting pressure against the tank on the opposite side does the exact same thing, it is just in a less efficient way of countersteering since you don't have the leverage of the handlebars.

You can measure this effect and watch it happen, which Keith Code did in that Twist of the Wrist 2 video.

In the end you have people who steer by knowing they countersteer, and people who steer without knowing they are countersteering, but it is all countersteering, all the evidence I have ever seen shows there is no other option for standard 2 wheel single track vehicles to steer.

 

Yeah, but did you see his desperate steering attempts?

 

Only he can tell us what was in his mind at the time, and he may not even know or be able to explain it, but it is clear to me he fixated on the danger, panicked, was indecisive and quickly ran out of time. He may not be a bad rider, but he made a bad mistake.

 

Wow. Up to 39 posts already. It reminds me of a thread I started last year on the subject. I thought there might be 5-6 replies but it went on and on like this one. I guess it's a lot more misunderstood/hot topic than I imagined. Some interesting posts here though.

 

In my opinion this and the braking arguments explain a lot of motorcycle injuries. Could you imagine how many more car accidents there would be if people couldnt agree on how you steer or brake a car?

"No dont EVER touch the steering wheel! Lean out the window and hold your hand in the wind while grasping the window sill and pulling down hard, that is the right way to steer!"

"Dont use the break pedal! Dont you know that will make you crash? ONLY use the handbrake!"

Sounds insanely crazy to talk about cars that way, but you get to motorcycles and this sort of misinformation seems to be the norm.