So my Question is to you the riders, Why do YOU not look for and participate in rider training, Advanced training etc. Why are you not trying to become a better rider and in turn a safer and more responsible rider? If you have taken a basic Rider course for a license or to learn why did you not follow up with more and advanced training?

Where I live we have to use our own motorcycles for advanced training and I am not comfortable with that idea.

 

So why would you not want to train on the bike you ride on the street? Riding on the street is much more dangerous that training in a parking lot. Also how are you going to get better at riding your bike if you do not learn the techniques to be a better rider, "Have the tools in your tool box?"

Riding alone is not going to do it, as if you have the wrong techniques or bad habits you will just become better at doing it wrong and not really improve.

 

Eye, that is exactly what I mean. Also, as much as it costs for the course one would think they would supply motorcycles. It is not the advanced training I am worried about but using my own bike.

 

I live south of St. Louis, MO and haven't seen the BRC2 or the ARC offered around here. When I took the BRC in 2012 the coaches said they tried to have the ARC but there was no demand for it.

I like to go to empty parking lots and practice slow maneuvers. But doing those for 4 to 5 hours straight really give the muscle memory to be able to do them with confidence. It is also great to have the coaches correct bad habits.

 

Hello Moni ! and how are you today? Yup I'm down here in St.Pete FL. Soon as it gets a bit cooler I'm back at a certain parking lot
doing Motorman Palladino's low speed skills a.k.a. ride like a pro, He has a book and video's don't need any coaches as long as one
follows the program outlined in the book, I started doing U-turns as I had more of a need to know how to do them than I had for
the off-set cone weave BUT that is the way it was, started doing the offset weave and it IS WORK but is also fun to do, also being
a long parking lot I'd get up to 40 then back to 20 REALLY QUICK then do a swerve, these are the skills that'll save our bacon, it
takes a LOT less skill to ride down the hi-way than it does for the low speed skills.

I used the cut in 1/2 tennis balls as markers, they are MUCH more visible than the dull red or green MSF cones and cost a lot less,
got them at Wal-marts. I forgot but I think that for 12 $ I got like eight or ten balls, so that was 16 to 20 markers. This really is a
good idea doing these skills as I heard even the motor cops have to practice about six times a year to keep their skills honed to
a sharp edge.

Go to YouTube and put in Motorman does U-turns, comes up quicker with YT. MC rider is really pretty good too.

 

So my Question is to you the riders, Why do YOU not look for and participate in rider training, Advanced training etc. Why are you not trying to become a better rider and in turn a safer and more responsible rider?

It sounds like you are saying that if a rider does not sign up for a paid course he's not interested in becoming a better rider.

That's simply not true. I know many riders that are constantly striving to become better and safer riders, and have been doing so for years. They do this by reading, by watching videos, by talking to other riders, (even on forums such as this one,) and most importantly by going out and practicing old skills and experimenting with new ones. There's more then one path to any goal, and a paid class isn't always the most feasible way to get there.

 

No I am not saying that at all, and I work a full time job for a living as well, I am not doing this for me but for other riders. In some states rider classes are free, so riders do not have to pay for them and they still do not attend.

Also I am not looking for an argument, I am looking to find out more about riders and what they think in regards to rider training and why.

 

That is so true Eye. I paid $215 for the BRC in 2012. Granted that is a small price to pay to learn for safety sake but I know lots of folks that just don't want to put out that much money.

I have friends that said it was a waste of good money because I already knew how to ride. I probably wouldn't have taken the course but due to issues with my back I felt I needed the help getting my skills back to where I knew I could ride again. The course really did help me do that.

 

No argument here. I was just answering your question with my own opinion.

Courses aren't free here, and other then the basic courses the only one I've seen is over in Tampa. $175 to learn how to make u-turns like a motor cop. It's very impressive to see, but not something I've ever really needed to be able to do.

Ultimately though, I think it's the type of riding that determines how much, and what type, advanced training a person is going to seek out. Those that do a lot of performance riding and see riding as a sport will likely be more interested in more technical track-type training by a professional. Those that see it as a leisure activity, or just plain transportation, might be more inclined to refresher type experiences or to other types of skills building.

 

I've always considered it ever since I got my bike, which was just a little over a year ago. I needed 10,000 miles to qualify for it though which I now have. I just need to allocate the time and money to do it now and I will at some point. Sounds fun to me.

 

Track day classes are aimed at riding fast, proficiently, learning to hang your buttocks off of the seat. I don't ride like that at all. I ride a touring bike, two up, 99% of the time. Most of the classes are not appropriate to my style of riding -- the skills used for high-speed riding, to take turns faster, with better traction by keeping the weight lower (my buttocks off of the seat), while keeping the bike more upright, are not applicable to my riding.

I have purchased the "Ride Like a Pro" DVD, for slow-speed handling, as this IS applicable to my riding style, on a heavy touring bike. I have used these skills repeatedly, on the street, with my bride on back -- this DVD was worth every penny, and it is a gift that keeps on giving us what we need, in our style of riding.

There have not been any Jerry Pallodino classes in our area, so the DVD is our only option -- no cash to transport ourselves, and our bike, to Florida, or Georgia, for these classes. Also, I don't need the full skill set, just the basics.

I read, and own, several books on advanced techniques. I re-read them during the off-season (will begin in a few weeks, when I moth-ball the bike for the Winter).

The MSF's Advanced Rider Course seems to be a re-hash of the BRC, without introducing any new material; besides, the ARC is only offered a couple of times each year, so I have to make my schedule fit their's -- not always feasible. Cheers!


PS:

The biggest reason: I ride sedately, not aggressively, which is what the classes tend to aim at. I ride leisurely, I do not 'carve corners', I just don't care to ride aggressively. Most classes have nothing to offer my riding style, so they do not offer anything I am interested in.

 

Some of us old guys that have been riding for many years are probably pretty set in our ways, not saying that is a good excuse but I think it is true.
I could probably gain a lot from an advanced riders course but most likely won't take one. Like has already been said, I don't want to take a chance of damaging my bike.
The other side of the coin is that anything we can learn to become better and safer riders is worth learning.

 

It seems to me that most of the reason's here for NOT taking advanced riding classes are because of $$ and because of fear of damaging your own bike.

I understand that $$ is often a factor and I suppose I also understand the fear of hurting your own bike but if you DON'T take a class and work on improving your own riding then you are much more at risk for crashing your own bike on the street and wasting a **** load of $$ and time fixing it (and your broken body). Wouldn't you want to put in a solid investment of time and $$ to ensure that you are the least likely to make a major mistake on the road?

Riders invest in good quality helmets, riding gear, aftermarket parts for their bikes and yet when it comes to spending $$ on making themselves a much better rider they balk at the cost.

At a good quality riding school you can practice emergency braking, work on improving your throttle control and your visual skills, get a feel for sliding a bike around and learn how to ride better, safer and faster. Isn't that reason enough to invest? If it saves you just one crash then it's more than worth it.

Misti

 

For me the answer is simple. I can find a nearby BRC class almost any weekend of the year. I don't think they hold them in January but there is often too much snow that time of year anyway. On the other hand the more advanced classes where I would get to use my own bike are rarely held and are held only in a very limited number of locations. When I visit the web site to find an advanced class I seldom find one within easy distances that is not already full. When it comes to paying big bucks to a private instructor, I just don't want to pay that kind of price. Heck, I took my first and only BRC after being a rider for over 40 years and at the age of 60. I have had a motorcycle endorsement since California created that classification in the early 70s even though I no longer live there.

 

I am in the same boat...l would love to learn more, not only safety-wise, but also at the track, but l don't want to scrape up my bike. I think at some point l will get another bike just for those types of days...maybe a 10 year old R6 that has been dropped a few times that l can pick up for $1000 or something like that.

 

According to the state page here, there's supposed to be BRC2 courses offered at the local schools that offer the BRC, but I called around this summer and couldn't find any. The site also said they offered private lessons for $60 an hour, but I never got that far.

 

All of the advanced training I have taken, Parking Lot, Dirt, and Track has always been a lot of fun, and every single program has made me a better rider and in turn a safer rider, While programs may be advertised as safety programs the real deal is to make you a better rider and to do that you have to learn things, some might be new and different, others might be improving on things you already know. But in the end learning can be fun, and if it is not fun, it is something I also probably would not take.

 

I am planning on taking the advanced course next spring/summer. I wanted to use my first season of riding to build up on the basics first before moving on to more advanced stuff. But you are right, the more you learn, the better off you will be.

 

... I have noticed it has always been very difficult to get riders to participate or take any type of training once they learn how to ride, and many do not get training to learn how to ride in the first place either...

There was no basic riding course in the 1960's. Back then I learned to ride from the same guys that taught me my other bad habits.

...
So my Question is to you the riders, Why do YOU not look for and participate in rider training, Advanced training etc. Why are you not trying to become a better rider and in turn a safer and more responsible rider? If you have taken a basic Rider course for a license or to learn why did you not follow up with more and advanced training?
...

I took the BRC in 2007 when I retuned to riding after two decades of being too busy doing other things. The following year I took an off road training class. I'm a retired guy so I keep tight reins on my spending. I agree with what Eye said about parking lot courses for motor patrol officers. Interesting stuff but that's not where I want to spend my money.

... I know some of you think, "I am a good rider" if that is the case, good in comparison to who? Don't you want to be better? Even track day guys? If you are not mixing it up with Rossi you can be better, so again whats the deal?...

I ride nearly every day year 'round. That all by itself is a continuous learning experience. Next month I'll turn 68 years old. I have confidence in my riding, but Rossi has nothing to worry about from me.

Every few weeks I do a spirited ride with a group of friends, all long time sport bike riders, all military veterans, all close in age and all are good riders. Whether it's just a four hour ride with a lunch stop, or a day trip to the mountains, I've found that riding with a small group of experienced friends is a good way to stay sharp and keep learning.

 

I've found that riding with a small group of experienced friends is a good way to stay sharp and keep learning.

I think that is a very good point.
I got my first bike in the sixties, and have had one every since. Back then we taught ourselves to ride, and made many mistakes in the process, and probably developed some bad habits. To me experience is sometimes the best teacher, that is if it doesn't kill you.

 

A thought:

Seems that folks are worried about binning their ride if they go advanced. It's a fair concern but I've never seen more than a scratched case and broken lever during Idaho's training and clinic training.

In Idaho we offer a "Braking Skills Practice" and a "Turning Skills Practice". They are about 4 hours each and have NO CLASSROOM component. And cost 35 bucks. And yes you ride your own bike (as you do in the Experienced Course or Basic 2) but really, at the end of the day if you're a street based rider why not ride your own? We could give you a sub 300lb 250 and you can practice your brains out but when push comes to shove--you can stop the hell out of you and 300lbs--what's going to happen when you have to stop 700lbs and you? It's going to be a different story and take more room. You haven't practiced that. You don't know what your ride is capable of.

I'm a fan of taking your own bike and training on it.

If you are taking your street ride to the track then cool, you're risking giving your daily commuter a real makeover if things go wrong. I'd suggest a track bike for the track.

 

what's going to happen when you have to stop 700lbs and you? It's going to be a different story and take more room. You haven't practiced that. You don't know what your ride is capable of.

I'm a fan of taking your own bike and training on it.

I agree, and training is safer than riding on the street, but you are not afraid to wade it on the street, but are in a parking lot?

 

There is nothing in the ARC course that a rider might not be called upon to do on the street if the situation arises. They don't have you jumping through flaming hoops or over buses.

 

Flaming hoops and over buses!! Now you're talking!! Something like this: http://www.ridingvintage.com/2013/02/vintage-motorcycle-stunts.html

Where do we sign up for the daredevils class? And, can I borrow your bike? :biggrin:

 

Riding

I think it is a good idea.
I would gladly take my own SV1000.
Earlier this year I could have participated in a past champions race at The Ridge in Shelton WA.
Had a race bike offered to me. But I declined.
As it has been a few years since I raced, I felt I would need a days practice at speed, to get back into it.
An advanced course would refresh some of the grey cells.

Unkle Crusty

 

what's going to happen when you have to stop 700lbs and you? It's going to be a different story and take more room. You haven't practiced that. You don't know what your ride is capable of.

This is an excellent point; however most of us that have ridden for a while know the limitations of our bikes. I ride a Goldwing, I know how fast it will stop, I can do tight figure eights. I have ridden with several people that have rode for many years, and most are really good conscientious riders that handle their bikes well. Would the advanced courses improve our ridding skills, probably so. Also most of us older riders, don't have a habit of pushing the envelope of the bikes performance capabilities, we aren't going to take our touring bikes to track day, unless it is to watch.

Most of the time the things that get you in trouble, aren't handling the bike, it is the cages, animals, or the unexpected that gets thrown at you. You don't learn those skills in a parking lot, you learn them through situational awareness.

For new or inexperienced riders, I would think these courses would serve them well.

 

Most of the time the things that get you in trouble, aren't handling the bike, it is the cages, animals, or the unexpected that gets thrown at you. You don't learn those skills in a parking lot, you learn them through situational awareness.

Not True, you might like that to be true, but the fact is Most motorcycle accidents are single vehicle (No one else involved) and of those half are failing to negotiate a curve. "They just drove into the ditch"

Now most two vehicle accidents involving a motorcycle are the fault of the other driver (Most not all) This might be what you are thinking.

So like "Many" riders you can keep telling yourself you dont need it, it is the other guy.

 

Animals

Deer work well to keep the speeds down on my Island.
One day in a hurry to make the ferry, around a corner on a wet road, there was a deer right in my path. On my SV650 Suzuki with 3 discs.
Hauled on the brakes, locked the front a teenzy bit, locked the rear some more. Got a bit sideways, had eased the front, then eased the back, got straight and hauled on the brakes again. Stooped a few feet in front of the deer, said high, and rode on to the ferry.

There are more than a few riders who would have dropped the bike, hit the deer, or hit the ditch or all three.
Sometimes extreme experience pays big dividends.

However after following many touring riders and lots of Harleys. The situation awareness seems to be getting better. The touring Harley riders in groups are most well behaved.

The young sport bike riders seem to be the biggest squirrels.

Unkle Crusty

 

So like "Many" riders you can keep telling yourself you dont need it, it is the other guy.

You are correct, and I could most likely improve my riding skills. I live in the Sierra foothills and I'm on the volunteer fire department. You are correct that most accidents in our area are single bike accidents, one being excessive speed and miss judging a corner, and secondly alcohol, and I don't mean in the gas tank.

What you don't see is the guy that flew off the road trying to miss a deer or some other critter that wondered onto the road. Here again, too fast. Most accidents are younger riders with unknown experience. I few are old timers that sat in the local biker bar too long.

We have a lot of riders up here, most are old retired guys like me. We ride the twisties at resonable speeds, don't drink and ride, and basically try to keep our heads out of the area where the sun don't shine.

 

We have a lot of riders up here, most are old retired guys like me. We ride the twisties at resonable speeds, don't drink and ride, and basically try to keep our heads out of the area where the sun don't shine.

It takes a lot of skill, intelligence, ability, and experience to get to be an old grey-haired road dog. It takes a shade of luck too, but mostly it takes the ability to learn from what happens along the route. Or, as a friend of mine said, "I didn't get to be a crusty ole Biker by being stupid. I got here in spite of being stupid."

 

i really want to take the class, but the honda riding center only has 1 every 3 months :\

 

Looks to me like you've found the main reason folks don't just jump at the chance to learn more. Not hurting their bike. I do think most would have no problem using their bike but they want that very first try to be on one that isn't. So you have a stalemate. Training facilities simply can't have one of each of the different 700 to 900 pound bikes and no one wants to try that first experiment on theirs.

Then add the time required in everyone's already busy life and at some point you got very few that will go for it. I really don't see an answer here. I'm sure there are a lot that would like to get some training. They just aren't going to hurt their baby. You might find this hard to believe but when my wife took a 3 wheel class, they made them use the brakes so much that her brakes needed some work when done. That's a lot of brake work. Granted they were still factory pads and two years old but that's still a lot a brake work leading to additional repairs.

It doesn't surprise me folks tend not to go to these. It wasn't just my wife's trike that needed servicing either. That was the main complaint of everyone. Their brakes didn't feel the same as when they started. I don't know what the others did but I just installed new pads on my wife's. Probably what the others did as well or lived with the new feeling. Don't know. Point is, these classes do cause you to use your bike like you never have. Some just don't want the hassle. So they become YouTube experts instead. Not a good substitute but that's where you are.

 

I get a kick out of you older guys thinking you have such great riding skills. I have had the opportunity to take several advanced rider courses through my bike club. The senior members who have taken the course probably learned more that the newbies. I started riding again after a 25 year break. In the past 7 years I have practiced at least an hour a month just for fun. It might be 5 a 10 minutes while I am waiting for my riding buddies to arrive.

If you are afraid of damaging your own bike then you really need to take the course. Go buy a piece of PVC pipe at the hardware store and wrap your engine guards (cruisers) to protect them. You are riding slow so it is not like you will destroy your bike.

I am a huge fan of the Ride Like a Pro DVD. Watch it and find a quiet parking lot. It will be the best $35 you spend for education.

We all need to be life long learners in everything we do. :71baldboy:

 

We all need to be life long learners in everything we do.

I agree. So tell me about the last advanced car driving course you took?