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Nightfly
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Most of us have probably seen Mobile oil's claim of 20,000 miles before the next oil change. Supposedly the oil has been test endlessly to make sure the oil maintains its viscosity, resists ash deposits and acidification, to protect against wear. Undoubtedly Mobile has done all this testing to be sure their new oil meets the 20k standard.

Personally I never worried so much about all that, my thing, and reason for doing an oil change was to get rid of the dirty oil. How does this new oil deal with all the extra dirt that surely must find its way into the oil. They have a new super filter? I just think I'll continue my oil changes as I have always done.
 

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Wouldn't it be possible, at least in theory, to keep the oil and just change the filter? If the oil itself holds up that long, wouldn't regular filter changes keep it clean?
 
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Gone.
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Wouldn't it be possible, at least in theory, to keep the oil and just change the filter? If the oil itself holds up that long, wouldn't regular filter changes keep it clean?
Like Thunder Roads suggested, only if they've also developed a new super filter.

The problem with the idea is that motorcycle oil filters are not 100% efficient for all sizes of contaminants. If, for example, you have a filter which is rated at 85% for 10 micron sized particles, that means that even when brand new it is not filtering out 10 micron sized particles completely, and very little of those particles which are smaller.

In addition, motorcycle oil filters have a bypass valve so that under heavy loads the filter is bypassed completely and nothing gets filtered out during that time. This is to keep the oil flowing when the filter gets clogged but it also cause a bypass situation when you get on the throttle.

Changing the filter might be better than not changing it but the oil is still going to have more contaminants in it at 20k miles than if you change it every 5k.
 

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I'll be the engines they tested this oil on were in tip top laboratory shape, too.
 

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Ace Tuner
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Some of us older pharts might remember when the new generation of synthetic motoroils came out in the 1970's.
The advertising at the time was that this new oil would last 100,000 miles in your engine without "breaking down".
I bet that wrecked a lot of motors...
 

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Like Thunder Roads suggested, only if they've also developed a new super filter.

The problem with the idea is that motorcycle oil filters are not 100% efficient for all sizes of contaminants. If, for example, you have a filter which is rated at 85% for 10 micron sized particles, that means that even when brand new it is not filtering out 10 micron sized particles completely, and very little of those particles which are smaller.

In addition, motorcycle oil filters have a bypass valve so that under heavy loads the filter is bypassed completely and nothing gets filtered out during that time. This is to keep the oil flowing when the filter gets clogged but it also cause a bypass situation when you get on the throttle.

Changing the filter might be better than not changing it but the oil is still going to have more contaminants in it at 20k miles than if you change it every 5k.
And now, I'm [] that much smarter than I was this morning! :thumbsup:
 

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MOD / Rider / Mechanic
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Big Trucks, designed to run 1 and 2 million miles we, well I run my oil 30k before changing, some run up to 70k and the service on the new ones are at 50k supposedly. Big differance though mine holds 44 quarts. I use the same oil in my bikes and far as I know they don't have grandeur claims for POV's but I do change it in December needed or not on the bikes using the same oil, Royal Purple 15w40 full synthetic Diesle and have no leaks on either yet.

Cummins ISX15 10 speed 332391.4 miles
 

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IIRC I (previously in my mechanical life) used to change our trucks' oils at 20K - mostly Detroit 60s.
 
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Yeah not sure what standard anyone is using to quantify 3k, 7k, 20k, 30k or even 50 and 70k. Hopefully oil analysis is involved. Next time I change my truck and my bike I am going to sent them off to be checked. Mainly the bike due to when I got it I drowned the motor with gas, and my truck I blew a turbo out. I really need to know where they are. But 20k for any POV seems high to me.
 

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Just for fun take a look at some various oil filters for motorcycles; Harleys have relatively big filters. Almost as big as a small car filter. Indians have little itty bitty filters. About the same size as on my lawn tractor. (And they run one oil for primary, transmission, and engine!) The Jap bikes I've worked on have them in several different sizes, but I can't remember which bike had what size.

I'm guessing those big diesel trucks have much bigger filters for all that oil.
 

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Yeah this trucks filter is about the size of a two liter bottle. The goldwing about 2x size of a standard bobbin of thread.
 

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Moderator - Loves All Motorcycles
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My Buell has a filter that's about the same size as my cars (their engines vary with two 699cc engines, a 999cc, and an 898cc). The cars run on a 10k schedule with full synthetics, with me having run one of them to 17k once (it was a really cold winter). The bikes will probably get changed out on sooner intervals like every 5k.

I know some of the German car manufacturers now have some of their cars on 15k schedules, but of course, they're built to handle more miles between changes. Not sure how much trust I'd put into an oil like that.
 

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It's amazing how far engines have come though, from total loss systems to changing the oil every 2,000 miles, to where we are now.
 
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What eye said.

Automotive filters pass larger particles and have a relief valve so they bypass oil when they block up - automotive engine design is based on dirty oil being better than no oil! An automotive filter passes particles 20 to 30 microns size (a human hair is about 80 microns across). Soot particles in an engine oil will be from as small as 5 microns, and soot particles are abrasive. Automotive filters are a 'nuts and bolts' system designed to take out large particles, the oil is changed to remove all other smaller sized contaminant particles.

In industrial applications the filter rating will be much smaller. I was fitting 40" tall x 6" dia filters rated at Beta 1000 5 micron (ie. they passed one particle in 1000 sized 5 microns and larger) in the gear filtration on Marion walking draglines, that was a gear box taking 800 to 1200 Litres (200 to 300 US gallons and we were filtering the equivalent of the gearbox capacity every 40 minutes). Hydraulic systems will have filtration at something like that rating too.

I really respect Mobil's synthetic technology, they have fantastic synthetic engine and industrial oils. But, oil is the cheapest maintenance component. My last bike, Suzuki recommended 8000 km/5000 mile oil changes. I used synthetic, high classification API SM, SAE 10W-40 motorbike engine oil and changed it at 5000 km/3000 miles and changed the filter every oil change too.

I saw a Cummins technical paper many years ago which charted oil drain interval against engine life to overhaul - this was almost a straight line graph, shorter oil drain intervals gave the longest engine life to overhaul, longer oil drain intervals gave shorter engine life to overhaul. I've stuck to that, change your oil regularly, drop all the deposits out, and fill with high grade fresh oil.
 

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Just for fun take a look at some various oil filters for motorcycles; Harleys have relatively big filters. Almost as big as a small car filter. Indians have little itty bitty filters. About the same size as on my lawn tractor. (And they run one oil for primary, transmission, and engine!) The Jap bikes I've worked on have them in several different sizes, but I can't remember which bike had what size.

I'm guessing those big diesel trucks have much bigger filters for all that oil.
I think my KOHLER engine oil filter is the same exact filter used in Indians. And the idiots put it right behind the front wheel. Makes it really handy to kick up a rock with a sharp point after getting broken to poke a hole in that thin metal. And chances of seeing a little bitty red light on the dash in the middle of the day is next to zero. One ruined engine in a heart beat. So contaminants in the oil is way down the list of my concerns. Not really but I do have other concerns.:surprise:
 
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Cummins developed an oiling system many years ago, allowing the engine oil to almost NEVER be changed:surprise:

A very large oil tank and advanced SMART filter technology, takes a sample of the oil quality at regular intervals and if the engine oil needs to be diluted with new oil, the system injects new oil into the crankcase. The quantity of oil tested is filtered and then injected into the diesel fuel tanks to be burned.:grin:

The system was engineered for long haul over the road BIG rigs but mainly for large commercial Garbage and dump trucks that run 24 hours per day:wink2:



CENTINEL™ - Extended Intervals. Extended Protection. Extended Savings.


CENTINEL Extends Everything.

CENTINEL Advanced Engine Oil Management System extends oil change intervals to 525,000 miles (844,906 km) and oil filter changes to 75,000 miles (120,701 km) for heavy-duty onhighway applications! Depending on duty cycle and (Industrial) application, oil changes can be extended up to 4,000 hours.

Extra Protection. Every™ Cycle.

At duty-cycle-dependent intervals, CENTINEL removes a small amount of used oil out of the lubrication system and sends it to your fuel tank. The used oil blends with the fuel and is burned during combustion. Simultaneously, CENTINEL adds the same amount of new oil from a makeup tank into your engine. This constantly replenishes oil additives, improving oil quality over the life of your engine. There is also a "Burn-Only" version of CENTINEL that eliminates the reserve oil tank and oil makeup feature. Burn-Only CENTINEL is ideal for those who manage maintenance daily and have weight-sensitive applications.

Heavy-Duty Savings. Every Kind Of Duty.

CENTINEL works over the road, on the water, in power generation and in the mining pits. Because it is available as an original engine option and in most cases as an aftermarket kit, Cummins owners with the following engines can benefit from CENTINEL: heavy-duty engines (L10, M11, N14, ISX and ISM) or high-horsepower industrial engines (QSX15, K19, QSK19, QST30, K38, QSK45, K50, QSK50, QSK60 and QSK78).

Features and Benefits.


Optimized Oil Management - Unlike time-based systems that replace oil at set intervals, CENTINEL's duty-based cycle control valve replaces oil as required. Your oil quality is stabilized at a 1:1 removal and replenishment rate
Approved Performance - CENTINEL is the only oil management system to be EPA-certified for Tier 2
Reduced Maintenance Costs
Reduced Waste Handling and Disposal Costs
Enhanced Engine Protection - Continuous replenishment of new oil into the lubrication system
Advanced Self-Monitoring Controls - CENTINEL monitors makeup tank level and oil control valve operation, and alerts the operator if any abnormal condition is detected
Every™ Confidence. Comprehensive CENTINEL Coverage.

CENTINEL comes with a 2-year/250,000-mile (402,336 km) on-highway or 1-year/3,600-hour off-highway warranty. For more information, see your local Cummins dealer/distributor or call us at 1-800-CUMMINS™ (1-800-286-6467).

Sam:nerd:
 

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That is a TERRIBLE place for the filter on the Indian 106, prone to damage, ugly, a tight squeeze to remove it and it's so small too, probably to shoehorn it into that spot. There really had to be a reason for the change, I was really surprised that Polaris used a different (smaller) filter on Indians than the Victory bikes do. Up until then they used the filter on all sorts of things, ATVs, every Vic bike for 19 years, etc, until the Indian engine came out. They use the same oil, but a different filter.

I think my KOHLER engine oil filter is the same exact filter used in Indians. And the idiots put it right behind the front wheel. Makes it really handy to kick up a rock with a sharp point after getting broken to poke a hole in that thin metal. And chances of seeing a little bitty red light on the dash in the middle of the day is next to zero. One ruined engine in a heart beat. So contaminants in the oil is way down the list of my concerns. Not really but I do have other concerns.:surprise:
 

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I'm really surprised to see a longer interval for anything with a shared oil system, wet clutch, gearbox, and engine, the amount of contaminants has to be pretty high, especially from the clutch wear. To me that seems like a bad idea.

But at least one manufacturer think's it's OK, the small Indian engine ( the liquid cooled Scout engines) now use synthetic oil and the specified oil change interval is 10,000 miles!
My wife has about 4K on her Scout, I asked if she is going to change it early, so far it looks pretty clean so she is going to watch and wait..that just seems like a long time to leave oil in a bike.

So the idea is to keep oil that has even more abrasive material in it circulating through your engine for 4 times longer.

Marvelous.
 
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