I'd say you didn't get the end of the starter output engaged in the drive for the starter clutch. You may have to take the side cover off the engine, to hold the drive in position to mate the starter. For example, my CB450's starter has a spline on the output, and the sprocket that mates it will drop down inside the case when the starter is pulled.

 

Ahhh, one of the things I was afraid of! So two questions:

1 - Do I need to drain any fluid before removing the cover?
2 - Is there anything in there that's spring loaded that I need to be mindful of when removing the cover?

Thanks!

 

1 - it may drip some oil, unless you tilt the bike to the other side; depends a lot on how 'wet' that side is.
2 - I don't know, but I wouldn't expect any. What you should find under there is the rotor/flywheel and starter clutch drive. Designs vary, though, so you really need to do a search for a manual, like a Clymer manual. That should not only tell you how to hook up the starter, but what else you may find in there. Plus, a good manual is really one of the more important tools to have, if you're going to do any more work on it.

 

OK. I do have the Suzuki repair manual for this model, but it doesn't have an exploded view of the opening where the starter gear meets the clutch.

I opened it up and had a look inside. The starter correctly lines up with the gear that it spins (starter clutch I'm assuming). I tested it. Essentially, the starter DOES spin, which in turn spins the bigger gears, but the reaction is the same. Empty spinning. It's not turning the engine over to crank it. So when you hold the starter button down, the gears just spin without the engine turning over. . .sounds kind of like holding the trigger of a drill down.

Ideas? Any help is HUGELY appreciated. Thanks!!!

 

The small gear that the starter fits into is not the clutch, but should drive a larger gear to gain mechanical advantage; basically the starter spins faster than the crankshaft. Some have multiple gears, like a transmission, for reasons known only to the designer. The bigger gear should be the input side of the starter clutch, and engages the rotor through the half of the clutch mounted to the back side of the rotor. That clutch is usually comprised of a number of free-moving parts, like rollers, that roll or slide up a ramp, until they can't move any farther, and lock the input side of the clutch to the rotor, turning the engine. You may be able to spray some WD-40 into the gap between the driven starter gear and the rotor to free up those moving parts, assuming they're stuck for some reason; 400 miles is very little mileage to have them fail any other way.
That clutch design is called a sprag clutch; you can look it up on Wiki for diagrams on how they work.

 

OK, I'm doing some research on sprag clutch design, but in the meantime, let me mention this to you. The symptom I am referring to did not occur until I pulled the starter to clean it. There's a little hole where the starter gear goes through to line up with the bigger gear you mentioned in your last post. I'm not sure why pulling the starter would have caused the sprag clutch to fail, but I thought it worth mentioning while I research it online. Thanks.

 

I'm looking at the starter and starter clutch diagrams at BoulevardSuzuki. The starter drives a small gear, which engages an idler gear. The idler is actually two sizes, and the smaller part engages the large gear behind the rotor. You said all of these gears spin when the starter motor runs? If the large gear is spinning, removing the motor was a coincidence. Unless, somehow, the starter motor is running backwards. That could only happen if you reversed the brush connections after you cleaned them. Looking at the gears, does the large gear spin clockwise when the starter runs?

Here's a link to the diagram of the starter clutch: http://www.boulevardsuzuki.com/fich...n=432063&year=2003&make=SUZUKI&category=Motorcycles&dc=2763&name=STARTER+CLUTCH
Part #1 is the idler gear, which has a smaller set of gear teeth on the back side, which engage the large gear of #3. When that gear spins, it binds the rollers, #5, between the wheel they are mounted in and the extended collar on the gear face. Bolt #7 attaches the wheel with the rollers to the alternator rotor.

 

Eureka! You know, I'd thought a time or two about it moving in the wrong direction, but I wasn't sure how that could happen. Right now, with the miles as low as they are, that seems like a sensible idea, especially since it only started after I pulled and cleaned the starter and replaced it.

So, without going to the trouble of pulling the cover off again, I'll just take out the starter and see which direction it turns when I tap the ignition and we can infer that the gear turns in the opposite direction. I'm praying that's the whole problem. Will keep you posted. Thanks!

 

I think the starter turns the same direction as the engine. The diagrams at boulevardsuzuki don't connect the parts, but they look the same as my S50. The starter fits into the first gear, which drives a second gear, called the idler. That idler gear turns the clutch gear. That means the direction reverses twice, so the starter should turn counter-clockwise as you look at the output end, same as the engine.

 

OK! Finally got a chance to get the starter off and check the direction. Quick tapped the ignition twice and the verdict is: CLOCKWISE.

I think (fingers crossed) that we may have found our solution. I'm about to break down the starter again and switch the brushes. Is that the only thing you can think of within the starter that would make it turn in the wrong direction? I didn't really see any other parts that I thought would reverse the starter spin.

 

That's the only thing. Sometimes, it is easier, because of routing or wire lengths, to connect them backwards. It's been so long since I've seen it, I didn't think of it right away. Clearly, it's one mistake you won't make again.

 

OK, broke down the starter and checked all connections and continuity. Due to wire lengths and bracket locations, the brushes can only go in one way. I was very careful to make sure all parts were where they needed to go according to the diagram in the repair manual. Put it back on the bike, and alas, still backward.

Sooo, I did MORE Googling and found another potential solution with battery polarity. Apparently a reversed polarity on the battery can also cause this. So, I got my voltage meter and measured continuity from the NEGATIVE battery terminal to the screw where the voltage is provided to the starter (which I BELIEVE should be continuous with the POSITIVE, not the NEGATIVE), but it is in fact continuous with the NEGATIVE, leading me to believe the polarity is reversed. Thoughts?

 

The starter motor is such a low resistance that, unless you disconnect the cable from the starter, you will read a direct connection to that cable. You will also read a connection from the engine case (negative terminal) to the post on the starter.

The positive should only be connected to the starter when the starter relay (solenoid) is turned on by pressing the starter button.

There is something amiss in how the brushes are connected; did you use new ones, or clean and re-use the originals? Perhaps the bracket is rotated from its original position, somehow? I really hope you didn't install the battery reversed.

 

OK, update. I pulled the starter, grabbed some jumper cables, and tested it with a fresh battery (positive on battery to power feed on starter, negative on battery to body of starter). The starter does indeed spin counterclockwise. Now, whether I mistakenly thought it was spinning clockwise before, I'm not sure.

But bottom line, it's spinning counterclockwise now, and to be sure, I attached the starter to the bike and attempted to start it manually using the battery, like I was jump starting it. Same result. Empty spinning; no engine turnover.

Are you certain that the starter should be spinning counterclockwise? I just can't see it being a faulty clutch with so few miles on it (and it being a Suzuki and all).

What do you think?

 

Looking at the diagram, roller 5 is pushed by spring 6 and pusher 4; this is to aid in disengaging the starter clutch when the engine starts, but also keeps the roller in position. When the big gear starts to spin, it pushes the roller against the spring, and rolls it into the ramp in the wheel the rollers are mounted in. It can only do this when the large gear turns counter clockwise, if that diagram is correct. It would only take one roller/spring assembly to stick to keep the clutch from working. I wonder if the large gear, or the idler gear #1 got knocked out of alignment somehow when you removed the starter.

Hate to say it, but I think you have to get inside the cover for another look. Perhaps there's some kind of bearing that's supposed to hold the gear on the end of the starter, that's fallen out of place, and that gear isn't actually driving the others properly. I can't find a gear that fits on the spline on the starter motor, which makes me think that spline actually drives gear #1, which rotates on pin #2. That pin must fit into holes in the engine block and the case cover, to keep it aligned both with the starter and the big drive gear. Maybe that pin is out of place.

In any event, you have a view window for the timing marks, and a small cover that gives access to the rotor, for hand-cranking. When you turn the engine until the marks are visible, the F (fire) mark should precede the T (tdc) mark when you turn the right way.

 

:thumbsup:UPDATE!!! After breaking down the starter and rebuilding it a dozen times, after countless hours of Googling and unwillingness to purchase a new one, THE SOLUTION PRESENTS ITSELF.

Oddly enough, I found the answer on a forum about a Sea-Doo starter. A guy was having the same problem with a two-brush starter. Turns out the housing of the starter has four magnets, two of which have a positive field and two of which have a negative field. One quarter turn of the body (without moving the armature) in either direction changes the polarity of the starter, which changes the direction of the spin. My starter had no markings on it which would tell me that I was putting the housing back on in the right position, so I assumed any way I could get the two screw holes to line up was fine (it wasn't!).

After checking the brushes and ruling them out as a possible problem, and after ruling out a faulty battery as a problem, I went back into the starter one last time after reading the Sea-Doo solution and turned the housing a quarter turn to the right, lining the screw holes up with the next opening between the magnets. Checked it again, and wadya know! Turns in the right direction!

What really ticks me off is that I probably really did disassemble that starter no less than five times, and apparently each time I put it back together I just HAPPENED to put the housing on the wrong way. ONE QUARTER TURN DUDE! That's all it took. Problem solved! :71baldboy:

 

And thanks for bearing with me WINTRSOL!

 

Odd. Every starter I've taken apart had a keying device of some sort to ensure it went together correctly. If I have occasion to take the starter apart on my Suzuki, I'll remember to mark it, just in case.

 

Yep. You can turn the housing in any direction and it will still fit together. I'll have the sharpie marker on hand next time

 

This thread helped me!

I just rebuilt the starter on my 93 Honda Nighthawk (CB750), reinstalled it and had the same exact experience - it spun strongly but wasn't engaging the motor at all.

I was thinking - did it's new found torque / strength break something internally the first time I engaged it? No way.

Pulled it, checked rotation - then tried moving the larger gear in the "opening" where the starter is mounted - it freewheels in one direction and resists in the other. Starter was turning in "freewheel" direction.

Has to be a polarity issue. I'll be tearing down the starter now to take a look.

 

twinstar free spinning starter

I have the same problem w/ the starter free wheeling. In the repair manual it doesn't acknowledge the present of a starter clutch. Could someone explain how the starter engages on a 81 honda twinstar 200?

 

The starter drives the crankshaft through a clutch, usually a sprag type. Some are gear driven, others use a chain. My CB450 uses a chain, while my Suzi is gear driven. You should look in your manual at the drawings of the starter motor and flywheel, for either a chain on sprockets, or a gear train.

In a sprag type clutch, there are rollers that ride on a smooth surface, usually on the crankshaft behind the generator rotor, which is also the flywheel. When the starter turns faster than the engine, those rollers lock between the clutch housing and that surface, forcing the crankshaft to turn; when the engine starts, it turns faster than the starter, and the rollers are released. In some engines, the clutch is on the end of the starter, instead of around the crankshaft, but functions the same. Without a clutch of this type, the starter would continue spinning with the engine, and wear out quickly. The failure mode is usually wear, which causes the rollers to bind in the housing, and not engage the crankshaft; many have small springs which keep the rollers in place, and when the springs break, the clutch stops working, too.

 

Tks. I purchased 8 boxes containing a twinstar. It looks like the springs and rollers are missing. My son and I put it together last winter. I'v ridden it around some and it runs good. I take my motorcycle test in a couple months.

 

Hard work, lots of thinking and testing, simple solution once you find it. Good job sticking it out until you solved it.

 

I have just read this thread with interest. On my 1988 Honda Super Magna V45 I have the following problem. When starting the bike, sometimes all goes normally. At other times, the starter motor turns with a somewhat grinding sound, as if it cannot engage the flywheel. This is a new problem and seems to be happening with increased frequency. I am worried that the teeth of the flywheel are worn out in some place. Or perhaps it is just the starter motor that needs cleaning. But it seems to turn at full speed also when in fails to engage. If I give the start button just a quick jab, and then try to start normally, then the starter motor will often engage normally. I have not disassembled anything yet. Any piece of advise for me with this?

 

Read this http://v4musclebike.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8445