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Ace Tuner
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Discussion Starter #1
We've all heard about the latest near miss of yet another mass shooting.
It was a near miss because a madman with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun.

" Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton told Fox News Monday that he hopes the gun law that prevented further carnage at a Fort Worth-area church over the weekend will be a model for other churches and states. "
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Paxton praised the law, which allows licensed gun owners to carry weapons inside houses of worship, and fast-acting armed citizen Jack Wilson for saving untold lives after a man opened fire at the West Freeway Church of Christ in White Settlement Sunday. "

But Julián Castro says...
“We can take steps to reduce these horrific attacks right now — we just need our elected leaders to have the courage to act,”

And Beto O'Rourke says...
“Clearly what we are doing in Texas, what we are doing in this country, when it comes to guns is not working.”

Courage to act? ...... What we are doing in Texas is not working?
^ Do you think these Libs can hear the insane things they are saying?

When we first got CCW passed here in Texas it was illegal, by state law, to carry in church. They fought the Libs and finally passed laws allowing us to carry in church.
The anti-gun folks have been wrong all along, and still are. Last Sunday at church proves that.
A liberal never admits the truth. Just look at the above statements by Castro and Beto.... Crazy!

We've made some progress as it relates to armed teachers and such in our schools, but we ain't there yet.

S F
 

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American Legion Rider
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Everyone in that church should sue the family of that creep for the mental anguish and ear damage cause by that creep. Hit them with both barrels. In other words reverse it on them. That's what the liberals have been doing all along. Anything they can think of they sue for. Well, it would interesting to see what would happen anyway. Conservatives generally aren't in that frame of mind.
 

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Thanks to another forum member, who shared a link to the full, uncut video, we've had the opportunity to see the entire 6 seconds, from the moment the gunman draws his weapon, until he is dropped. His weapon is a short shotgun, and from the image posted in one of the news stories of the back of one of the parishioners who was wounded, it appears he loaded that shotgun with birdshot. Eyewitnesses report that the gunman wore a wig and false beard. Although the gunman shot first, he did not simply draw and fire. Approximately three seconds elapse between his drawing the weapon, and his first shot, which was directed at the volunteer security guard who stood up and drew his weapon from concealment, and in full view of the gunman. That man's pistol was very nearly fully drawn before he is shot. This all occurs while the collection of contributions is underway.

All these factors suggest to me that this was perhaps not an intended mass murder, but a robbery that went amiss. Shotguns, especially loaded with shotshells are inefficient killers, with a modest ammo capacity, and the ammo is heavy and bulky to carry. Although shotguns have been used in mass murders, the preferred weapon today is a high cap. rifle or pistol.

Mass murderers are not known to disguise their identities. Indeed it's been found that these acts are often at least partially motivated by a desire to "make a name for oneself". A disguise suggests the gunman's intention was to do some criminal action and escape without being identified.

It seems to me, based on what I see in the video, if people had left their guns in their holsters a few seconds, or minutes longer, or even left them at home, it's quite possible that two good men might have gone home to their families. In this alternate scenario, the bad man would have escaped with the money from the collection plate. Of course I have no way of knowing the gunman's intentions, so I'll wait for further information from law enforcement investigations.

Although proponents of gun rights were quick to cite this incident as supporting their arguments, and perhaps it does, I personally wouldn't be so quick to draw this conclusion.
 

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Although proponents of gun rights were quick to cite this incident as supporting their arguments, and perhaps it does, I personally wouldn't be so quick to draw this conclusion.
I'll grant you that it's a valid argument. But would you risk your life to find out in a similar situation? One that you are in without playing armchair quarterback. Videos after the fact make it easy to second guess. I'd much rather be prepared not need it than not have it and wish(temporarily until shot) and need it. We will just never know unfortunately but it is a valid point.
 

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Blessed are those who shall stand and fight for what is right and just. It makes little difference between a thief of property, money, or life, as they are the same. Those that will steal cannot be trusted with life. In doing so they have earned the right of termination, swift and sure by the hand of those they trespass. I salute these brave souls who stopped this trespasser, we need more like them in our congregations and society.
 

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I have tried to refrain from hitting someone, until I see a fist coming my way. I think the same logic could apply here. I would refrain from aiming a gun at someone, until I saw one aimed at me.
The good guy who was shot had nano seconds to respond. And that was not enough time to check the contents of the bad guys gun, or question him about his plans. Fortunately the next good guy, making the same decision, had an extra second, and was a very good shot. Got the baddie in the head.
It would be nice if folks did not have to be armed in church. That time has not arrived yet in the US.

UK
 

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All the reports I read said it was during communion not while passing the collection basket.
 

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Ace Tuner
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Discussion Starter #9
Mass murderers are not known to disguise their identities. Indeed it's been found that these acts are often at least partially motivated by a desire to "make a name for oneself". A disguise suggests the gunman's intention was to do some criminal action and escape without being identified.
Good point, the disguise does suggest that the low life intended to get away without being identified. Honestly I never thought that he could have been only out to rob the place. I had guessed he wanted to kill and get away because there had to be more than that one collection plate being passed around. (If it was a collection plate and not a communion bread plate). My Church of Christ is about half the size of this one and we run seven plates during communion for both the bread and collection. Of course we do not see the whole service so we don't know if possibly that might have been the plate that all of the money from all of the plates was in and being taken to the count room. The news is reporting that they were serving communion but it's to early to tell if that is correct.
One thing about it only being a robbery. Most people put checks in the plate, not cash, but nobody ever said low life thieves were smart so...

It seems to me, based on what I see in the video, if people had left their guns in their holsters a few seconds, or minutes longer, or even left them at home, ............
Leave your gun at home? I see the words you wrote but I can not understand them.
Here is why....
Anyone that comes in and pulls a gun, of any sort, is out to kill you and possibly as many others as he can so IT IS A SHOOTOUT as soon as the thug brandishes, every time, there is no second guessing about that.
Lets not forget that in many simple robberies the bad guy kills while he is at it, identity hidden or not. That is why you have to assume the nut is out to kill and why going unarmed is not an option.

S F
 

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[/QUOTE]
All the reports I read said it was during communion not while passing the collection basket.
Some reports do indeed say that, but, at least one I read said that the collection had just been taken. I'm only familiar with a communion process where people get up and move to the front, so perhaps it was the passing of a bread plate, not a collection plate.

Many reports also said he was "wielding a rifle", that three people were killed, and so on. We have to be tolerant of the news folks not knowing what a rifle is versus a shotgun and perhaps not understanding other nuances, as I certainly do not.

I won't argue that the guy was not evil, or that he was not the wisest man in the room. More recent reports are that this individual had asked for money from the church on several occasions, and been refused, so perhaps he did have a vendetta. Based on what I saw I will say.
- Nobody started shooting until somebody tried to draw on an already drawn gun.
- 357 Sig is a very effective, accurate cartridge in the right hands.

I will also say that people DO draw and point guns with no intention of firing them. This is standard practice during all types of robberies. Even law enforcement engages in this practice as a means of getting control. It's something that makes for a very persuasive argument. I've had a gun drawn on me, and pointed at my head, and I was not shot and nobody was killed. The other party's intention was to get my compliance, and they succeeded.

My main point is an analog of the old saying "To a man who has only a hammer, everything is a nail". To a man who has only a gun, perhaps other avenues will be ignored.
 

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I found the CBS news report I saw, which says at 1:11 that they were passing the "collection plate", but does appear to be a communion plate and NOT a collection plate.
 

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Ace Tuner
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Discussion Starter #12
Well the, "it was only a robbery" theory is out according to the people that were actually there at the time....
From the Christian Chronicle (An international newspaper for Churches of Christ).
_

" Now, on the Sunday between Christmas and New Year’s Day, a gunman had opened fire at the back of the West Freeway auditorium, shattering the peace of the congregation’s weekly observance of the Lord’s Supper."

" The victims have been identified as Richard White, 67, a member of the church’s security team, and Anton “Tony” Wallace, 64, a deacon who was serving Communion."

So when he got up between the bread and the cup, or right after the prayer, we said, ‘We need to make an intervention,’” Robertson added.
John Robertson, church elder.

" During the Lord’s Supper, Kinnunen pulled out a modified, 12-gauge shotgun with a pistol grip, Farmer told The Christian Chronicle."
Brit Farmer, the preacher, was sitting in a pew while communion was being served.

We’ve helped him on several occasions with food,” Farmer told the Chronicle. “He gets mad when we won’t give him cash. He’s been here on multiple occasions.”

____

BTW. The collection is typically last, after the bread and fruit of the vine. This was no robbery. It was MURDER!
If those people attending church that day would have left their guns at home this WOULD have been a mass murder.

Just Sayin
S F
 

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My main point is an analog of the old saying "To a man who has only a hammer, everything is a nail". To a man who has only a gun, perhaps other avenues will be ignored.
"To a man who has no gun, it will be alright, just do as they say, all they want is your money, jewels, wife, life!" (said by George Dean, Master Chief Instructor, TacTrain Skill at Arms Development)
 

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"To a man who has no gun, it will be alright, just do as they say, all they want is your money, jewels, wife, life!" (said by George Dean, Master Chief Instructor, TacTrain Skill at Arms Development)
Yes! Stats show that CCW carriers are among the most law-abiding group you will come across. Every person I've interacted with or read on forums stresses that using a firearm should only occur when there are NO other avenues to take (other than just letting the perp have their way).

It is a common fallacy, particularly among the ignorant (willful or otherwise) to believe we carry in the hope of getting to use when, in fact, it is (or should be) the exact opposite...
 

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It is a common fallacy, particularly among the ignorant (willful or otherwise) to believe we carry in the hope of getting to use when, in fact, it is (or should be) the exact opposite...
Most of the classes we offered at TacTrain started at the point a gun needed to be used. They were high speed advanced skill building studies and practical application of lethal force. Students were screened prior to acceptance to have had prior legal, social, humanity based training in alternative methods. However, despite the screening, I would occasionally identify new students who had little to no avoidance or alternative training. In those classes I added specific lectures and demonstrations to enlighten students on these very important skills.

Without wrapping it up in political correctness, I trained students how to kill to save life and/or severe bodily injury. I included in those studies a balance between law, humanity, and honor.

It's my opinion, as well Doc that you are precisely correct. We carry with the hopes and intent not to have to use, along with the skills to use if and when we find ourselves at the bottom line.

The bottom line in this OP at it's simplest, a good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun, therefore preventing additional injuries and death to the innocent. And we should not forget, a good guy with a gun tried to stop a bad guy with a gun and lost the battle.......there is your hero, who died with honor.
 

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Ace Tuner
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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
And we should not forget, a good guy with a gun tried to stop a bad guy with a gun and lost the battle.......there is your hero, who died with honor.
True That ...... Godspeed, Richard White

S F
 

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True That ...... Godspeed, Richard White
Yes, he paid the ultimate price by making the gunman focus his attention on him while the other security took him out. As concealed carries we know that is the chance we are taking. He has my utmost respect and admiration.
 

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Those that don't have a concealed carry permit really have no idea of the gravity of the situation when one does indeed carry a lethal weapon upon their person: The severity of the situation goes from the theoretical to reality as soon as one goes into the public domain. Shooting a few rounds at a range or in the woods is instructive and fun BUT even the most trained individual reacts differently to a 'REAL' life situation when under undue stress to make a decisive decision in a 'nano' second and get accurate placement of the projectile(s), so as to lessen or eliminate collateral damage.

The first time I carried, reality hit me and frankly I was a little scared! Me, ex-Military, expert Sharpshooter, Gun store owner, reloader and IPSC shooter who shot maybe 400 rounds per week for many years and the owner of most every pistol you can think of and high powered legal assault and long range hunting rifles was if not scared, apprehensive and worried about the 'what ifs.' The legal and moral ramifications are tremendous if something happens. The laws weigh heavily in favor of the 'perp,' dead or alive or wounded and the 'shooter' must show a clear and present mortal danger to be justified in using his weapon, licensed or not. Laws vary widely in cities, counties and States and one must KNOW THE LAW or pay the consequences.

I also OPEN CARRY and I am ambivalent about it being even legal to do so as a non Law Enforcement Officer, as I feel MOST citizens are scared to death to see a person, not in uniform with a sidearm on their hip or in a sling.

A non-Felon can legally conceal carry currently in Missouri WITHOUT a CCW, which I think is ridiculous on its face.

Licensed permit holders have been finger printed, retinal scanned, vetted by the DOJ, FBI and the County Sheriff and police Dept's for their possible criminal past before the License is granted.

Sam
 

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Licensed permit holders have been finger printed, retinal scanned, vetted by the DOJ, FBI and the County Sheriff and police Dept's for their possible criminal past before the License is granted.
That's the part most don't understand. They have pitchers in their heads of scenes from Gunsmoke when everyone just up and carries with zero vetting.

We no longer have to qualify by shooting targets too but I had/have no problem with that either.
 
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