You'll learn through practice, experimentation and experience how to use the back brake.

One thing you need to understand, and I think they mention this in the MSF though I never took one, is a tire can only be asked to do so much. A tire can pretty much do three things: turn, accelerate and decelerate. It can do two of these at once and a percentage of the traction of the tire is devoted to each. If you brake too hard in a turn, you are asking it to perform beyond its abilities. Sometimes when you enter a turn more quickly than you anticipated, the panic reaction is to try to brake and slow down as much as possible while still trying to turn. This will be met with failure. Sometimes (though not always) it's best to devote all your focus, and all the potential of the tire, toward turning, and sometimes you'll make it out even if you thought you were going too fast for the turn.

But you're also asking about slow speed maneuvers. I don't know the physics behind it, I'm really not even sure how to explain how to go about doing low speed maneuvers. I have ten years of riding experience and it all started by trial and error at a young age so it comes naturally to me. Crash can probably explain this part better.

The impression I get, and I could be terribly wrong but it works for me, is the engine, transmission and brakes each have their key roles to play in this. The engine and transmission work together to make the power and send it to the wheel. You have to multitask and decide how much power needs to be made, and how much needs to get to the wheel. The more power that's being made, and the more of that that gets to the wheel, the more balance you have. But you need to not go fast, which is where the brake comes in. And somehow, skillfully manipulating these three forces can allow us to balance bikes at near halted speeds and do things like make u turns.

You know what, wait for Crash. He'll explain that a whole lot better than I did.

 

Schneiderman, you did good! Don't underestimate yourself.

The issue is that at low speed you aren't spending any traction on turning (side force) and you can use available traction at the rear brake to 'tension' the bike. AT SPEED, in a lean, you're using lots of the available traction for turning, and to suddenly have a brake input would 'overspend' the traction and the tire slides and you (potentially/probably/generally) lowside.

During low speed stuff dragging the rear stands the bike up, and (seems to me) to pulls back on the bike, making it feel more rigid. Using the front during lowspeed stuff loads up the front and makes the bike feel like it wants to snap to one side or the other. Hence, in lowspeed stuff you can get away with dragging the rear. Hough suggests it for U-turns, I think he's right, I just use it more...I think.

 

he says to work the rear brake through slow speed maneuvers and I'm curious what makes that work when hitting the rear brake in a turn doesn't?

I don't know exactly how to describe it, but when applying rear brake at slow speed it has a gyro type effect and stabilizes the bike , but in a turn at speed it will make the bike want to "straighten" up... to much brake of course will cause a skid

 

Okay, thanks gentlemen ... I'm going to be hitting the parking lots over the next few weeks and just keep working at it, hopefully without laying it down again.

 

Xian it's been my observation that using the front brake in low speed manuevers has a tendancy to bounce the front forks, which just has to bounce the center of gravity...and that can't be a good thing.

You do a lot of things different at low speeds. You can't 'countersteer' so you have to steer it 'traditionally' like a bicycle at low speeds. It might help to 'throw a cheek' off the seat towards the outside of the turn (and weight the outside peg - stand up on the pegs and motorcross it if you have too!) on slow turns...being gentle with the clutch...and throttle...and use the back brake to keep it all steady.

Find you a big empty parking lot (school or shopping mall on Sunday?) and get some saddle time.

 

Yeah, I have to move tomorrow but that should only take a couple of hours. I'm hoping to get a good two or three hours at the local community college parking lot after that.

 

Just be careful not to apply so much pressure to your brakes that you lockup the wheel. Lock up a wheel... loose traction.

 

I know that throttle and clutch help control speed in general -- so do all of you. I think that adding the rear brake gives a 3rd dimension of control -- it is just one more thing to help control the speed of the bike.

It's amazing how much having that extra degree of control helps in the slow speed maneuvers. Even though I'm not super good at it, I can always do my tight turning maneuvers slow and get the job done; if I don't have the confidence, I can always "cheat" by using the rear brake and going slow. Hopefully, when I get proficient, I can do it faster.

It was drilled into my head that slow speed maneuvers means NO front brake. And if you do use front brake, you had better be in a straight line.

Dennis

 

I am new to the site and am taking my MSF next month but all of this reeks of car racing for me (a former hobby). It's about line into your turn (properly leaning and apexing), proper entry speed, and the the 100% traction rule pointed out above.

The motorcycle is similar to the car in that at a max turn speed (where most of the tires grip is going to traction), if you apply the brakes to the front at all, you will start to understeer (not good on a bike). In a RWD car (just like a bike), if i needed to slow in a turn, I used the engine as essentially a rear brake. In a motorcycle without a slipper clutch that could pose some problems for inexperienced riders, but lo and behold, motorcycles have independent brakes, and the rear brake can be used to low the bike instead of a down shift.

Is that about right? Again, this is just adapting from cage racing.

Oh and PS, according to my wife, bicycles and motorcycles don't have independent brakes. Each lever just makes you brake a little harder on both wheels

 

Interesting question I actually just finished my MSF Class today (and passed!)

When we did "Curves, swerves and Stops" we did a lesson where there was a figure "8" followed by a tight "S" curve where we had to stop at the very last curve in the "S". The key for me and I think its what they said to do was to keep your body straight up as you turn the bars and lean the bike, although, when you need to STOP turn the bars straight so the bike stands back up and then apply both front and rear breaks to come to a "safe" stop.

To control the speed in the turns I never had to use the breaks in a turn I just used the clutch to control my speed at ~7-14mph. Like Dennis said, no front break... I saw a prime example of that one... The tire locked up, turned and the guy ended up rolling across the lot...

Another thing to think about is that when your turning fast, if your not on the throttle your naturally slowing down and that may be all you need when it comes to entering a curve too fast, just keep in mind it will make the bike less stable.

Beyond all my learning experiences over the last three months I have learned that I learn and ride better when I don't think too hard about what I'm doing, just counter steering is a must, or you will not turn and when you have to stop... Just slow down and stop. I think people think into the basics way too much... Thats just my opinion though. Just have fun and watch where your going and look where you want to be!

 

In a car (RWD), I don't use engine to slow me down before a curve -- I use the brakes in a straight line, bring car into the curve, accelerate out of the apex.

If you're in a turn and at the limit (there's no more traction left), please don't apply the brakes or you're car's rear will break loose and you will spin (rear first) toward the outside of the turn. Why? because the front gets more weight thrown its way during braking, and the back gets less weight and it's out of traction and will slide. To get more grip on the rear and maintain the turn, press the gas -- this will put weight on the rear thus giving it more traction.

You can use the hand brake (usually tied to the rear tires) the slow the car down without losing so much weight to the rear.

Why is it that Porsche 911s have the engine rear of the rear axle (i.e., rear mounted engine)? one reason is that when you brake hard, all the engine weight keeps the rear-end weighted (as opposed to the rear end becoming unweighted and the front end diving) -- so, all 4 tires share the load of braking. This is not to mention that Porsches have great brakes too.

I believe much of this applies to MC, and this "weight management" is a big part of keeping out of a spin. However, there is significantly less possibility of serious injury when trying this in a car than on a MC if you make a mistake. In a car, you oversteer (rear end breaks loose) and no cars around -- you slide, and no big deal (try again and take it a little slower). On a MC, you slide, you fall -- most likely ouch to human body and MC body.

I envy those folks that can "drift" their MC -- I wish I could do it so that if I accidently drift, no big deal. Today, "drift" is a little scary for me although, I've practiced in my head what to do if it happens.

Dennis

 

I've accidentally drifted motorcycles before, and I think what saved me every time was my experience riding a dirtbike in a snow. The first time I drifted on the road was on a dual sport that had knobbies on, and it shocked me at first but reflex kicked in and I rode it out without thinking about what to do.

 

Very good point

I've accidentally drifted motorcycles before, and I think what saved me every time was my experience riding a dirt bike in a snow. The first time I drifted on the road was on a dual sport that had knobbies on, and it shocked me at first but reflex kicked in and I rode it out without thinking about what to do.

Most people do not ride it out and usually would be fine but they panic and hit the brakes. If they feel one or both tires sliding just stay with it and I've never went down. But it does give you that sick feeling for a second. Your dirt riding was a great plus in being able to handle a bike for sure.

 

Well, I called my MSF school today and presented them with the scenario. They said that my situation was a touchy one and that there wasn't a lot of options considering if I straighted up and applied the brakes, I'd be facing oncoming traffic. They actually told me that my best bet in that scenario, given that I had a full intersection to work with and the fact that the oncoming car was coming from a dead stop instead of speeding through the intersection, would have been to roll on the throttle and basically just beat the car out. Looking back, this was completely doable without even making it a close call but I just ... didn't. I gotta keep telling myself, increased throttle in a turn equals increased traction. It just seems counter-intuitive but I'll get it.

 

Agreed -- you dirt bikers have a nice advantage.

Re: rolling on throttle increases traction -- in general yes. I think the idea is that it weights the rear tire down and that's how you get the extra traction.

One day I rolled on the throttle a little much while in a turn leaned over and I drifted to the outside of the turn. One of these days, I'll get up the stones to do this on purpose to practice drifting in a parking lot.

Dennis

 

I would not say rolling on the throttle increases traction. In a car perhaps but not a bike. You may be talking about using throttle with rear brake in a slow turn. That does work but any time I roll on the throttle, I loose some traction.

 

A tire only has so much traction from its contact patch. Anything you do short of parking the bike takes away from some of the traction it has to offer. You can think of it as balancing books, so to speak. As long as you have more money in the bank (available traction) than you need to spend (using that traction for acceleration, braking, turning), you're ok. But if you spend more than you have, you don't have the money to cover your spending (run out of traction and over you go). The better the tire, the more traction (more money in the bank) you have to start with, so the more you can use (spend) without running out. So, for example, brand x tire might be, say, 15 dollars in the bank, brand y may only be worth 9.

Lets say the tire traction of your rear tire is a bank account with 10 dollars in it. Once you over-draw the account, you break loose the tire and it spins or slides.

If going around a corner hard, you are using 8 dollars worth of traction, and you apply the brakes only slightly, enough to use 1 dollar worth, you're fine. Hit them too hard and use 5 dollars worth, and that's that. But if are just putting around, you might only use 1 dollar of traction turning, so there's a lot available for braking.

If you are cornering hard and you are using all 10 dollars worth just making it around the corner, ANY application of THROTTLE or BRAKE and you are going down, period.

Anything the tire has to do other than coasting in a straight line decreases traction as the tire only has so much to go around. It doesn't matter what you're doing, accelerating, turning, or braking. Anything reduces the amount of traction available to do other things. If you accelerate in a straight line hard enough, you will either do a wheelie, or you will overspend your traction and spin. If you brake hard enough, you will slide. If you turn hard enough, it will slide out from under you. ANY combination of those things that exceeds traction will result in the release of traction, period.

Applying power does not increase traction, it decreases it. While it might put more weight on the tire, there is now more inertia on the tire fighting against it. In any case, the traction on the rear tire lost from acceleration (spending) will always be more than the gain from weight transfer.

This is exactly why traction management is so important in racing.

 

Hm... Thanks for the correction. Now that I think of it, a car's tire (unlike a motorcycle's) is always vertical. For a car, with rear end going sideways in a turn, applying throttle will put more weight on the rear tires and increase traction thus stopping the slide. Now I know this works because I have to do it in snow sometimes.

Sounds like it's not so on a motorcycle (probably due to lean right?).

I guess it's a good thing I haven't tried the slide/recover thing on a motorcycle that I do in a car.

Dennis