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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Yesterday was a really nice day. No fams around, so I got to get some riding in with a cuple friends. I will miss these guys when i leave. we have been getting in trouble together since 1990. anyway, we were on a longer leg of our ride and I got to do some bunny slope twisties. Now, im typically pretty slow in these. the other guys ride sport bikes, i am lately on a suzuki DR 650, but yesterday was on my dyna. Slow, press roll was calmly flowing in my mind along with Brahhhhhhhhh as i rode. I hqve noticed that I really lean now. I dont scrape peg anymore. Not bragging at my super awesome biker skills, just marvling at how it just comes to us is all.
 

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Sounds amazing and like you made a nice discovery in your own riding. That's the best way to ride, knowing that you have good technique that you don't have to think about too hard and feeling relaxed about it. Nice :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Sounds amazing and like you made a nice discovery in your own riding. That's the best way to ride, knowing that you have good technique that you don't have to think about too hard and feeling relaxed about it. Nice :)

I also noticed that im able to keep up with these guys when we rife. Our twistys are likely not impressive at all to most riders, but its still fun. Especially when something like "slow, press, roll" plays out exactly like its spoken, lol. Its a silly little thing, but I enjoy the little things.
 

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Risk meets fear, I remember that saying. Anyway, I guess it depends on your goals. Your either slowing into the corner entry then press and roll out. Or your trail braking into the corner. I trail brake, it just feels better for me and in more control. For more leisurely riding I will slow press and roll.
 

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That's the addictive part about riding lots, it starts feeling natural so you don't even have to think about riding and your reflexes seem to take over, then you want to ride even more, then you ride so much it hurts but you like it because you are hooked on it. Lots of people have referred to it as your Bag of Tricks or set of skills like cornering at speed with control, brake control, clutch control, throttle control, balance control which leads to low speed control, then you can explore splats, zaps, wheelies, bunny hops and flip turns, riding in deep water, riding in deep mud, riding over logs, riding on ice is very cool :cool:
So many people say they have no interest to ride in amateur competition but they really should, that is what you are doing every time you go riding in a group and equate your ride performance to others, it's no different. Motorcycle riders feed off each others addiction, haven't you noticed that :LOL: Tomorrow is senior citizens ride day here and it's suppose to be a hot one.
 

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Yesterday was a really nice day. No fams around, so I got to get some riding in with a cuple friends. I will miss these guys when i leave. we have been getting in trouble together since 1990. anyway, we were on a longer leg of our ride and I got to do some bunny slope twisties. Now, im typically pretty slow in these. the other guys ride sport bikes, i am lately on a suzuki DR 650, but yesterday was on my dyna. Slow, press roll was calmly flowing in my mind along with Brahhhhhhhhh as i rode. I hqve noticed that I really lean now. I dont scrape peg anymore. Not bragging at my super awesome biker skills, just marvling at how it just comes to us is all.
Question for ya, just to get you thinking. Why do you think that you were really able to lean and not scrape your peg? What was different about your riding, or why did it have that effect?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Question for ya, just to get you thinking. Why do you think that you were really able to lean and not scrape your peg? What was different about your riding, or why did it have that effect?
Honestly, I don't know why I scrape peg. I assume its because I'm going to fast. Its not like im dragging knee taking corners at 70, but some times ill get into the slow press roll, and right before roll, scraaapEE! and then as I roll the bike comes up nice and easy. I have not scraped peg on the Suzuki, except for when I ate it.
 

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Honestly, I don't know why I scrape peg. I assume its because I'm going to fast. Its not like im dragging knee taking corners at 70, but some times ill get into the slow press roll, and right before roll, scraaapEE! and then as I roll the bike comes up nice and easy. I have not scraped peg on the Suzuki, except for when I ate it.
In golf, you go out one day and everything works perfect, you start going over how your swing felt trying copy that feeling, trying to pick up any changes you made that worked so perfectly.......you go out next day and can't hit the ball......you begin to analyze more, your swing gets worse.......

Don't try to analyze
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
In golf, you go out one day and everything works perfect, you start going over how your swing felt trying copy that feeling, trying to pick up any changes you made that worked so perfectly.......you go out next day and can't hit the ball......you begin to analyze more, your swing gets worse.......

Don't try to analyze
I only analyzed last night lol. Honestly, its not going to fast. Here is how it go's for me as an unschooled heathen. Speed is down to about 20 mph, I think turn, chin points where I want my arss to go, handlebars on the turn. It almost feels like its doing it on its own. I do know when I come into a turn hot, I don't turn, I go straight. This stuff is why I regret having not taken the MSF course. COVID hit and I couldn't get a spot. COVID is ebbing, weather is nice and I cant get a spot, lol. I am free today. Im thinking of watching flick of the wrist. I do want to understand more of the physics of riding.
 

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I only analyzed last night lol. Honestly, its not going to fast. Here is how it go's for me as an unschooled heathen. Speed is down to about 20 mph, I think turn, chin points where I want my arss to go, handlebars on the turn. It almost feels like its doing it on its own. I do know when I come into a turn hot, I don't turn, I go straight. This stuff is why I regret having not taken the MSF course. COVID hit and I couldn't get a spot. COVID is ebbing, weather is nice and I cant get a spot, lol. I am free today. Im thinking of watching flick of the wrist. I do want to understand more of the physics of riding.
I'm glad you took the time to analyze your riding and what I'm getting from this above is that when you have a good turn everything seems to flow nicely, your body position is good with where your chin is pointing your arse goes- beauty, no peg scraping.

But, when you come in too fast you said you don't turn and go straight. Then what I'm assuming happens is you kind of panic turn, something changes with your execution and you don't turn well. First of all this is a common scenario, triggered by the survivial reaction that crops up when entering a turn too fast.

So, step one: Enter turns at a speed that is comfortable and work on setting consistent and safe entry speeds! Better to enter in slow and exit hot than the reverse.

Step 2- understand countersteering and practice it well so that in situations where you feel like you are in too fast, you can still get the bike turned and turned well. So, question for you before we move to step 3.

-when you want the bike to turn left what do you do to counter-steer it into the turn? Is there a way of counter-steering more effectively?

Let's answer this one first and then I will touch more on why you sometimes scrape peg and why sometimes you dont- bear with me on this :)
 

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I'm glad you took the time to analyze your riding and what I'm getting from this above is that when you have a good turn everything seems to flow nicely, your body position is good with where your chin is pointing your arse goes- beauty, no peg scraping.

But, when you come in too fast you said you don't turn and go straight. Then what I'm assuming happens is you kind of panic turn, something changes with your execution and you don't turn well. First of all this is a common scenario, triggered by the survivial reaction that crops up when entering a turn too fast.

So, step one: Enter turns at a speed that is comfortable and work on setting consistent and safe entry speeds! Better to enter in slow and exit hot than the reverse.

Step 2- understand countersteering and practice it well so that in situations where you feel like you are in too fast, you can still get the bike turned and turned well. So, question for you before we move to step 3.

-when you want the bike to turn left what do you do to counter-steer it into the turn? Is there a way of counter-steering more effectively?

Let's answer this one first and then I will touch more on why you sometimes scrape peg and why sometimes you dont- bear with me on this :)
Slow, press and roll works well if you can see all of the turn. Basically it's good for slight curves in the road. The problem with this style of riding is when you encounter a turn where your vision is impaired from an increased cornering arch where objects block most of the turn, like rock cliffs, tree, structures etc. As soon as you release the gas, press, which is counter steer and then get back on the gas your unsettling the suspension; for starters. Also at this point your also on the gas, and possibly not accelerating but nevertheless the corner is ever exposing itself while your on the gas, can you see where this can go. At any time a corner tightens and your on the throttle and the unexpected happens your now changing hand and foot positions, body posture, off the throttle and on the brake or brakes which again can unsettle the suspension depending on how tight the corner exposes itself. Not to mention panic. This is the basic problem and where most accidents happen by either going wide and off the road or right into oncoming traffic. it's a dangerous style of riding. Trail braking should be standard training everywhere. With trail braking going into a tight corner your bike is already settled, larger foodprint with more grip and if the unexpected happens your already in the right position, and the throttle is only applied when you can see the apex and the rest of the corner. kind of a no brainer. imo
 

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Trail braking should be standard training everywhere. With trail braking going into a tight corner your bike is already settled, larger foodprint with more grip and if the unexpected happens your already in the right position, and the throttle is only applied when you can see the apex and the rest of the corner. kind of a no brainer. imo
If everything works out, that is the judgement we make for the turn suit the turn, slow-press-roll will work. If the judgement is wrong for the turn, we are stuck with adding lean, going back to the brakes probably in a panic, or thinking to long before we do anything! No doubt slow-press-roll works for many riders many times, but I think it is as difficult for new riders coming from a parking lot class to the streets as most MSF instructors think it is difficult to teach a new rider trail braking.

Along with trail braking is developing smooth on and off application of the brakes and smooth off and on application of the throttle skills. Also an understanding how well brakes on a motorcycle work and how inadequate they can be, from first hand experience on their bike. Sometimes new riders, and some so called experienced riders, are trusted into situations they are not prepared for by either misjudging a turn or trying to keep up with the pack. Regardless, trail braking provides us with a means to adjust our speed in the initial part of a turn when we have made a misjudgement. It also allows us to safely maneuver our line through turns by braking a little longer to adjust our speed, or in the event we need to stop/slow in a turn we can avoid the grab and snatch of the brakes because we already have the brakes ready for an adjustment. Many think trail braking is an advanced technique better for the track than the street and I think they are wrong. Trail braking is easy to teach and even more important on the street than the track (if we insist on labeling it).
 

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If everything works out, that is the judgement we make for the turn suit the turn, slow-press-roll will work. If the judgement is wrong for the turn, we are stuck with adding lean, going back to the brakes probably in a panic, or thinking to long before we do anything! No doubt slow-press-roll works for many riders many times, but I think it is as difficult for new riders coming from a parking lot class to the streets as most MSF instructors think it is difficult to teach a new rider trail braking.

Along with trail braking is developing smooth on and off application of the brakes and smooth off and on application of the throttle skills. Also an understanding how well brakes on a motorcycle work and how inadequate they can be, from first hand experience on their bike. Sometimes new riders, and some so called experienced riders, are trusted into situations they are not prepared for by either misjudging a turn or trying to keep up with the pack. Regardless, trail braking provides us with a means to adjust our speed in the initial part of a turn when we have made a misjudgement. It also allows us to safely maneuver our line through turns by braking a little longer to adjust our speed, or in the event we need to stop/slow in a turn we can avoid the grab and snatch of the brakes because we already have the brakes ready for an adjustment. Many think trail braking is an advanced technique better for the track than the street and I think they are wrong. Trail braking is easy to teach and even more important on the street than the track (if we insist on labeling it).
Agreed. Hopefully new riders get onto trail braking sooner than later, it could save their lives.
 

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Agreed. Hopefully new riders get onto trail braking sooner than later, it could save their lives.
Yes. The biggest issue with trail braking I think, is proper training. The MSF basic course doesn't teach it, nor do they give it any creditable attention in their intermediate or advanced course (MSF instructors correct me if I'm wrong, as it has been several years since I attended). Their Total Control class may touch on it. CSS I think touches on it and uses trail braking in a limited capacity (@Misti can correct me if I'm wrong). YCRS (Yamaha Champions Riding School) uses trail braking almost exclusively. There are several others I have read about from time to time, but I think all the quality professional schools offering trail braking training are a bit expensive for a lot of riders and for most the schools require additional time and expense in travel to get to a school location. Riders can learn from online videos and articles, but for many (not all) that is pretty close to self training and also difficult for many to master. I think it is sad that for the most part the industry has ignored this extremely valuable safety technique (almost to the point of being criminal).
 

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Counter-steering initiates a lean on the fast moving motorcycle, it only turns if you follow through with your body to make it work.
Trail braking (applying the rear brake late in the turn) technique to make the bike squat, and the rear brake also has the effect of standing the bike more upright, so you can use that coming out of a turn.
 

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Yes. The biggest issue with trail braking I think, is proper training. The MSF basic course doesn't teach it, nor do they give it any creditable attention in their intermediate or advanced course (MSF instructors correct me if I'm wrong, as it has been several years since I attended). Their Total Control class may touch on it. CSS I think touches on it and uses trail braking in a limited capacity (@Misti can correct me if I'm wrong). YCRS (Yamaha Champions Riding School) uses trail braking almost exclusively. There are several others I have read about from time to time, but I think all the quality professional schools offering trail braking training are a bit expensive for a lot of riders and for most the schools require additional time and expense in travel to get to a school location. Riders can learn from online videos and articles, but for many (not all) that is pretty close to self training and also difficult for many to master. I think it is sad that for the most part the industry has ignored this extremely valuable safety technique (almost to the point of being criminal).
How anyone can enter a corner on the throttle/gas and then make split second descisions based on where the corner unfolds is foolish. Similar to going over the wall in the WW1, maybe I'll make it, maybe I won't. Yes kind of criminal really.

I got my racing license in the early 80's with Jim Russell at Circuit Mont-Tremblant (open wheel Cosworth engined cars) and trail braking was the preferred and only method for the type of cornering we are referring to. I'm not familiar with schools today teaching beginners. I suspect it's mostly not on the agenda because it requires some critical thinking that is difficult to relay to a person that have absolutely no experience. If I'm being honest with myself how can we expect that rider (little to no experience) to navigate cornering, simply because a mistake can cause injury. Maybe it has to do with limiting liability, not sure. The complete understanding of the theory behind trail braking needs to be in place at the time of issuing a licence with a written and/or online detailed questionnaire that ensures people at least understand what trail braking is, it's advantages, safety aspects and of course limitations on all driving cornering techniques. Maybe then the rider will be asking questions when they do get to the driving school/instructor led courses about trail braking.
 

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Counter steering works without body shifting, although there is nothing wrong with body/weight shifting in combination. Trail braking on the street/pavement to get best effect is done with the front brake and it is applied in combination with the initial braking prior to entering the turn. Instead of braking to slow and releasing the brake prior to "press" the front brake is gradually released (trail off the brake) into the turn, until you are happy with the speed and lean angle.
 

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Counter-steering initiates a lean on the fast moving motorcycle, it only turns if you follow through with your body to make it work.
Trail braking (applying the rear brake late in the turn) technique to make the bike squat, and the rear brake also has the effect of standing the bike more upright, so you can use that coming out of a turn.
Trail braking is not applying the rear brake per se, you can if you want to but it's 90% front brake, and it's not neccessarily late in the turn, quite the opposite, early or initial braking then letting out the brake pressure as you enter and see where the turn goes after you've already counter steered and leaned into the corner.
 

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The complete understanding of the theory behind trail braking needs to be in place at the time of issuing a licence with a written and/or online detailed questionnaire that ensures people at least understand what trail braking is, it's advantages, safety aspects and of course limitations on all driving cornering techniques. Maybe then the rider will be asking questions when they do get to the driving school/instructor led courses about trail braking.
I agree, but I wonder how many of those responsible for writing a questionnaire really know enough about trail braking technique to explain it in writing. Many have put it in print, some get it wrong, some get it right, and some get it part right/wrong. anyway I would differently support the idea.
 
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