Motorcycle Forum banner

1 - 21 of 51 Posts

·
MODERATOR
Joined
·
7,502 Posts
Discussion Starter #1


你们美国人真傻。
Nǐmen měiguó rén zhēn shǎ.

Sam:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
970 Posts
Well hopefully they give it a more Euro/American styling than that bug looking pure breed Chinese styled machine.
 

·
Nightfly
Joined
·
4,240 Posts
One of the most hideous, repulsive and offensive pieces of garbage to come from any motorcycle manufacturer ever. The look of a demented insect seems to appeal to a certain segment of the motorcycle community of which I have never been a part, nor will I with this new creepy offering. It may serve a purpose of cheap, not to be confused with inexpensive, transportation to the poor Chinese who are flooded with cheap pieces of crap already. I'm a Harley guy and understand their need to make money for their survival. It's just a shame they have chosen to do so in such a demeaning manner. And leaving the Harley worker with nary any involvement i.e. no jobs because of it's Chinese connection. Sad...
 

·
Registered
2019 Kawasaki Versys 1000 SE LT+
Joined
·
91 Posts
Style? To each his own.... I look at a Harley bagger (or a Japanese wannabe) and think, "Come on, guys. It's not 1953 any more". The big Indians are even worse - they look like 1934.

If it does anything to save corporate H-D, I'm all for it - hope the sell a bundle. Just wish they were made anywhere but China.
 

·
Registered
79 Cb750f
Joined
·
206 Posts
Style? To each his own.... I look at a Harley bagger (or a Japanese wannabe) and think, "Come on, guys. It's not 1953 any more". The big Indians are even worse - they look like 1934.

If it does anything to save corporate H-D, I'm all for it - hope the sell a bundle. Just wish they were made anywhere but China.
man, ain't that the truth.

Some American needs to take a page out of the Royal Enfield book.

I wonder, where do you apply for a grant to start a motorcycle manufacturing business?
 

·
Registered
2019 Kawasaki Versys 1000 SE LT+
Joined
·
91 Posts
..........I wonder, where do you apply for a grant to start a motorcycle manufacturing business?
Eric Buell made a good shot at it, but H-D killed it. Here's one you probably never heard of from a few years back - the Motus. Impressive ride, but their price tag killed them.


 

·
Registered
79 Cb750f
Joined
·
206 Posts
Eric Buell made a good shot at it, but H-D killed it. Here's one you probably never heard of from a few years back - the Motus. Impressive ride, but their price tag killed them.


Buell screwed up just like Cannondale and Alta. Too much too soon. Effin engineers overdoing everything. So smart they're stupid. Priced right out of the grasp of many.

how hard is it to understand?
Copy what's working, and selling, change it just enough to beat the copyrights, build them in a factory on the Mexican border with non union labor and win.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
613 Posts
The fact that you guys from the USA hate the machine is probably a good thing. Hasn't HD already stated that it's not going to be sold in the US. The 350 is targeted at asia, where a lot more motorcycles are sold, than are sold in north america. The last numbers I compared were India vs US for 2018. India is a country approximately 1/3 the land mass of the USA. 45 Times more motorcycles were sold in India than in the US in 2018.

I don't need to mention that US motorcycle sales continue to decline.
 

·
MODERATOR
Joined
·
7,502 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Johnny, do you ever support anything other than Foreign motorcycles? "You guys from the USA"--your IP addresses show you are in the United States--OUI?

China was just named as the worst human rights country in the World and maybe this COLORS the viewpoint of some of us about their products, that and the trade imbalance.

No one that posted on this topic said they HATED the bike??

Motorcycle sales will continue to decline due to this Pandemic and regretfully, it will adversely affect that WONDERFUL Royal Enfield company you so dearly love!

I like the way the bike looks, as it is SURPRISE---almost an exact copy of the little BMW GS 310 adventure bike---made in India.:)

Sam:)
 

·
Retired twice: Navy and as a govt contractor
Joined
·
12,844 Posts
Well that is something you can't un-see easily
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
613 Posts
Johnny, do you ever support anything other than Foreign motorcycles? "You guys from the USA"--your IP addresses show you are in the United States--OUI?
I do support US Harley, I own a Harley and will buy another, perhaps several in my lifetime. 2nd hand, of course.

I also support their effort to become a global company, which they can only do by offering products that foreign markets want to purchase. If the US motorcycle market is declining, and it has been, for various reasons that have been discussed, then it only makes sense to try to sell bikes where people ARE buying them, which is in asia.

Asian markets have very plainly rejected the big, heavy, high capacity machines that HD are known for here. If one looks at published sales data, (and I focus on India, because it surpassed China as the largest consumer of two wheelers some years ago, AND it's very difficult to find any published information sales data for China), one sees that the majority of HD sales were of their Street 500 and 750, with much much smaller numbers of larger machines. In all, HD sales comprised less than 1/10 of 1% of the 44 million machines that were sold there, for the year I checked. Since Royal Enfield's 350 was simultaneously outselling their 500 at something like 25 to 1, and RE has subsequently withdrawn the 500, it only makes sense that anyone at HD paying attention might conclude that the Indian market prefers something even smaller than a 500 twin.

My point would be that embracing the intelligent, market based moves, that HD is making, is much more supportive of the company, than insisting that they do what they have always been doing. If you look at my posts, you will see that I have made statements in favor of the Street twins, the LiveWire, and the 350, whatever they are going to call it.
I even lauded their little two stroke Hummer, from the 50s, that never sold very well. Supporting HD does not mean insisting on a high cap V-Twin engine. That attitude is exactly what got them into the trouble they are in.
 

·
Registered
79 Cb750f
Joined
·
206 Posts
I do support US Harley, I own a Harley and will buy another, perhaps several in my lifetime. 2nd hand, of course.

I also support their effort to become a global company, which they can only do by offering products that foreign markets want to purchase. If the US motorcycle market is declining, and it has been, for various reasons that have been discussed, then it only makes sense to try to sell bikes where people ARE buying them, which is in asia.

Asian markets have very plainly rejected the big, heavy, high capacity machines that HD are known for here. If one looks at published sales data, (and I focus on India, because it surpassed China as the largest consumer of two wheelers some years ago, AND it's very difficult to find any published information sales data for China), one sees that the majority of HD sales were of their Street 500 and 750, with much much smaller numbers of larger machines. In all, HD sales comprised less than 1/10 of 1% of the 44 million machines that were sold there, for the year I checked. Since Royal Enfield's 350 was simultaneously outselling their 500 at something like 25 to 1, and RE has subsequently withdrawn the 500, it only makes sense that anyone at HD paying attention might conclude that the Indian market prefers something even smaller than a 500 twin.

My point would be that embracing the intelligent, market based moves, that HD is making, is much more supportive of the company, than insisting that they do what they have always been doing. If you look at my posts, you will see that I have made statements in favor of the Street twins, the LiveWire, and the 350, whatever they are going to call it.
I even lauded their little two stroke Hummer, from the 50s, that never sold very well. Supporting HD does not mean insisting on a high cap V-Twin engine. That attitude is exactly what got them into the trouble they are in.
I don't agree. It's the overexpantion, the quest to be everything for everyone that has hurt them.

They need to go back to what they do best.
Big bikes, with that big profit margin, for those looking for the allure that HD has.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
613 Posts
I don't agree. It's the overexpantion, the quest to be everything for everyone that has hurt them.

They need to go back to what they do best.
Big bikes, with that big profit margin, for those looking for the allure that HD has.
I'd say that HD never STOPPED offering the big, high profit bikes, .... let's look at the numbers:

In 2006, US total motorcycle sales peaked at over 1.1 Million, the most for any year to date. HD sold 272,212 units in the US in 2006. Harley was offering 33 machines over 750cc in 2006.

In 2019, US total motorcycle sales were 468,000. Harley's piece of the USA sales pie was 125,960 units. HD offered 36 products over 750cc in 2019. They offered just 3 machines of 750 ccs and under.

It seems that Harley was taking your advice, sticking with the big, high dollar bikes. But, with 3 MORE high dollar, big engine machines being offered, HD experienced a 54% sales drop in 2019 compared to 2006. This suggests that either the declining market is NOT about the product but is based on some outside factors, or that the US market disagrees with you, and doesn't want HD's big machines.

If we looked at the international sales figures, we could see how international sales, have partially cushioned that drop in sales, but if we did, I think we'd find that the majority of those sales were of the meager three offerings of 750 cc and smaller machines.

Ref: I used this site to generate my number of models figures: 2006 Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Reviews, Prices and Specs
I used HD published sales data for the numbers of bikes sold: Harley-Davidson Reports Revenue And Earnings Growth For 2006 | Harley-Davidson USA
I used sales figures I found in online articles for total US sales data. Like this one: Motorcycle Sales Patterns Explained | The Sky is Not Falling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
613 Posts
Motorcycle sales will continue to decline due to this Pandemic and regretfully, it will adversely affect that WONDERFUL Royal Enfield company you so dearly love!
It's interesting that the exact opposite is being reported.

You've probably read, that bicycle sales have gone through the roof during the pandemic. This has been attributed to people not wanting to ride public transport and seeking a low cost alternative. It's not hard to see how that might also apply to some motorcycles, although perhaps not the high end, big dollar machines.

Royal Enfield will likely be negatively impacted, not because they can't SELL, but because like all factories in India, the government shut them down. People want to buy, but the factory can't BUILD. I've heard that US dealers are not budging on sales price, and have jacked up prices in some cases, because they know that they won't get any more stock this season.
 

·
Registered
79 Cb750f
Joined
·
206 Posts
So, with all this R&D, all the cost incurred, trying to be like the rest, all over the globe, not a lot has changed?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
613 Posts
So, with all this R&D, all the cost incurred, trying to be like the rest, all over the globe, not a lot has changed?
I want to say that there wouldn't have been much R&D cost associated with hanging new plastic on an existing chinese bike, which was the original plan. However, in true HD fashion, that changed and they are apparently doing something a bit more elaborate with the engine, probably for a very good engineering reason. If you are going to do R&D, though, doing it in China has got to be cheaper than doing it in the US. Since this is a collaboration with Qiangjiang, I'd assume that Qiangjiang is underwriting a generous proportion of the development and tooling cost.

The Street twins, being based on the V-Rod engine, would likely have had a good amount of the total R&D cost absorbed by that earlier program.

The Livewire, did cost them some big R&D bucks, no argument from me on that one, but in some ways, they leapfrogged Zero and got out front with the one product that is EPA standards proof.

There's also R&D costs associated with developing and advancing the Big Twin engines. Folks who know a lot more about these things than I do are saying that it's unlikely that the big air cooled engines will survive the next change in EPA allowed emissions. The US is currently operating under the equivalent of Euro 3 standards, while Europe and even India are already up to Euro 6 standards. Depending on what happens in November, a substantial change could be coming very soon. This is another thing that a smart motor vehicle company needs to consider.
 

·
Registered
79 Cb750f
Joined
·
206 Posts
Wel, the thing is Johnny, from what I saw is they, HD, were planning all kinds of stuff. Scooters. Electric bicycles. I saw somewhere the previous CEO was talking there would be over 100 new models from them in the future. Huh?

Hey, I'm all for looking ahead.

But that has never been The Motherships strong suit.

They can't build a sport bike. They can't build a dirt bike. They can't build a golf cart. That will sell enough to turn a profit anyway.

That's just the way they are.

Stick with what they do well. They have made billionaires out of those in the upper levels of management/ownership. There is a following like no other for their product. If they need to scale back, so be it.
 
1 - 21 of 51 Posts
Top