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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Quick general question if you don’t mind for you more engineering-minded people - When changing your oil and oil filter, does the first start-up (dry start) straight after cause any more wear/harm to the engine than a regular engine start?

Asking for a dumbass who changed his oil twice in a week due to putting the wrong oil in (don't ask) :-/

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Unless it sits an extended period of time after draining the oil, there should still be a film of oil on all the parts. Just don't race the engine until it has time for oil pressure to build up, which can take a minute or two. So, not much different than starting it after letting it sit a few days.
 

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Did that but does that make a real difference?
Sure does. Maybe not enough to cause an engine to blow but if you ever find a time when you have a hydraulic lifter that leaks down, you'll see the difference in how much sooner the system gets back up under pressure and that lifter stops making noise. But as with most things, it's your bike to do with as you please too. I always fill the filter even with one that is mounted horizontally. Just won't fill it as full but enough to get all the paper soaked plus some. So about half full. Sure I might lose a teaspoon or a little more. No biggy.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Sure does. Maybe not enough to cause an engine to blow but if you ever find a time when you have a hydraulic lifter that leaks down, you'll see the difference in how much sooner the system gets back up under pressure and that lifter stops making noise. But as with most things, it's your bike to do with as you please too. I always fill the filter even with one that is mounted horizontally. Just won't fill it as full but enough to get all the paper soaked plus some. So about half full. Sure I might lose a teaspoon or a little more. No biggy.


I always prefill mine too and also have horizontal mounting.


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Did that but does that make a real difference?
As noted previously, there should enough residual oil on the metal parts to keep 'em protected BUT... if you fill the filter, you'll notice that the media does soak up quite a bit. I usually fill it once, let it soak in, and then fill again. Without doing that, your certainly prolonging the time before the oil gets fully circulated. Might not make much of a difference but it's easy enough to do and can only be beneficial...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
As noted previously, there should enough residual oil on the metal parts to keep 'em protected BUT... if you fill the filter, you'll notice that the media does soak up quite a bit. I usually fill it once, let it soak in, and then fill again. Without doing that, your certainly prolonging the time before the oil gets fully circulated. Might not make much of a difference but it's easy enough to do and can only be beneficial...


How different though even not filling the filter would that be from a normal start after a modern bike standing for a couple of weeks?




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How different though even not filling the filter would that be from a normal start after a modern bike standing for a couple of weeks?




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I know it takes a good 30 seconds to soak the media initially. I would imagine it would stay that way for at least several weeks but cannot say for certain. I'm sure that with the correct "phraseology" you could find some tests on the YouTubes...
 

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Most everybody changes the oil and filter and fires. Run gently, shut it off and checks levels. At the other extreme, an engine that has not run for a couple of years, or had a rebuild. You would prime the pump if new parts. If sitting for a while, you might pore some oil down the holes.
Or fire it up and wear ear plugs.

The double A fuelers, crank or push until they get oil pressure, then hit the magneto switch.

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Your splitting hairs here, the film of oil on the parts does it's job every time you start the bike until it gets oil pressure, an extra second or two to get pressure after an oil change is basically meaningless.
 
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I don't know if it's still available but Moroso used to make something called and oil Accumulator. I think it held around 2 or 3 quarts. This was a safety backup for an unsuspected drop in oil pressure. It hooked up to the pressure side of an engine's oil system. After use it would automatically fill itself up by forcing oil back into the tank, creating pressure from the air already in the tank.

I would use this as a pre-oilier on my heavily modified street car. It saved ever having to worry about a dry start. Don't know if there are smaller units for a motorcycle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Your splitting hairs here, the film of oil on the parts does it's job every time you start the bike until it gets oil pressure, an extra second or two to get pressure after an oil change is basically meaningless.


This is what makes sense to me. So are you saying the a start after a Oil and filter change is the same as a regular start?


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This is what makes sense to me. So are you saying the a start after a Oil and filter change is the same as a regular start?


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Pretty sure that's what was said, and I agree. Millions of engines are treated this way, and many last a lot longer than 100k miles. Most don't pre-oil the filter; it fills with oil so fast after the start, that I can't see that being useful. Fully synthetic oils cling better to the parts than cracked oil, too, so an engine can run many minutes without oil pressure when you use it.
 
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I'll chime in here, as someone with a background in high performance and oem automotive engines, a lot has to do with the engine design and amount of compression it has.
On a car engine, your bearings are just soft babbit inserts, they rely on a film of pressurized oil to prevent metal to metal contact. The more compression you have, the more force on the rod bearings and crank bearings and the more likely a dry start will contribute some added wear. Modern oils have additives for lubricity and cling. It allows a certain amount of oil to remain that should never drain down within a reasonable amount of time. If the oil is old, then those additives may well be depleted and those effects may be weaker.

Now with most bike engines, we have roller bearings, there is no free play in the bearing to rod, crank to block contact areas, these areas are taken up with roller bearings or ball bearings. This means that there is no room for a dry bearing to 'slap' or 'knock' and do damage due to a hammering affect. Many bikes also have a dry sump or full pressure lube system which pumps oil the instance the engine is turned over, and bike engines turn over a lot faster than car engines do.
Now the areas of concern on a bike engine would be places like your hydraulic lifters, or overhead cam followers if they're not roller type.

I would say that filling the filter to some degree to soak the filter element inside is a good idea, as is adding some oil but I don't think its as big a deal on start up as on most car engines.
I regularly see modern bike engines surpassing the 100k mark these days, I've even seen a handful over 200k and still going strong.
Most engines will let you know if they need the filter filled or the pressure to be cranked up before starting simply by the sound of them when they start up. If it sounds noisy or loose when you start it after an oil change, then maybe taking a few second to crank it over with the ignition disconnected or simply turned off may be a good idea. Cranking the engine with the ignition off will build oil pressure without the load or impact of combustion.
Personally, I put enough oil in the filter to wet the paper good, and maybe as much as won't spill putting it on the bike and then I'll crank it a bit without the choke on restart before applying the choke or turning on the ignition. I don't think I've ever heard a difference between a regular cold start or a fresh oil change start on any of my bikes.
 

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I don't know if it's still available but Moroso used to make something called and oil Accumulator. I think it held around 2 or 3 quarts. This was a safety backup for an unsuspected drop in oil pressure. It hooked up to the pressure side of an engine's oil system. After use it would automatically fill itself up by forcing oil back into the tank, creating pressure from the air already in the tank.

I would use this as a pre-oilier on my heavily modified street car. It saved ever having to worry about a dry start. Don't know if there are smaller units for a motorcycle.
I think Canton makes the Accusump too, but its too big for a bike, at least the versions I've seen. The versions I've seen hold between 1 and 5.5 qts with the 5.5qt model being a full on preoiler system

They work but are really more for the guy running a super high compression or supercharged motor running ethanol where the engine oil could be thinned from an overly rich start.

I suppose the 1qt model could be hidden on a bike and you could tie into the oil cooler lines, provided the oil cooler is a full flow type unit that would allow that surge of presurized oil to reach the important areas of the motor. Chances are, on a bike, if the pressure could get up to an overhead camshaft and cam followers it would give the most benefit.

On a stock bike, it would still be way too much overkill in my opinion.
 

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My FXSTS is a dry sump with pushrod overhead valves like most Harleys It is an 88 and starts without any clatter, even after sitting all winter.
 

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My FXSTS is a dry sump with pushrod overhead valves like most Harleys It is an 88 and starts without any clatter, even after sitting all winter.
I had bearing clatter when I fired the Ford N tractor, after it sat for about 4 years, maybe more. At 7.4 to one compression ( 112 pounds ) I was not worried. The bearings shut up soon enough, and the oil pressure went up, and Herb has been happy ever after. Especially now that I fire him up more often.

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Neither the owner's manual for my 2000 Yamaha Road Star or my 2018 Yamaha Star Eluder says anything about filling the filter after an oil change. In fact, the 2000 manual says after filling it with oil to start it up and rev it up a few times and then check the oil level.

Maybe they don't know about putting oil in a filter. I will say now, this is with an oil change, not for a new engine overhaul where all the oil has been drained.

Like some others, I can let mine set for half a year, then start it up and it works right away. Never notice any special noise. I have two 2000 bikes with 100,000 miles on them and neither burns any oil between changes (which have been up to 9,000 miles apart once). I always use synthetics, too.

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My FXSTS is a dry sump with pushrod overhead valves like most Harleys It is an 88 and starts without any clatter, even after sitting all winter.
Old fashioned push rods and a single carb is what I like most about the Harley motors. Not much to go wrong.

The only down side to the dry sump system is that if a hose leaks or breaks, you lose engine oiling. I bought a couple older iron head Sportsters cheap that had died that way over the years. The guy I bought the one bike from told me that it was spewing oil for miles, he said he was riding it back from FL to MD and it was spraying oil all over the exhaust, rear tire and his leg for miles before it seized up. I guess he never thought to stop and fix it or maybe ad some oil?
It did get me a fairly clean bike in need of a motor job for $400 though.
 
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