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Nightfly
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As a long time Harley rider and owner the Livewire was doomed from the start. 30K for the Livewire is just ridiculous, if they can't cut that price drastically it will never sell. Harley should look at what Chevy has done with the old pushrod V8. Their new Screamin' Eagle lV kit for the Milwaukee-Eight Engine is a step in the right direction, but they should make it available on their standard bikes, not a 4k upgrade.

Electric bikes will become more viable over time but there will always be a place for the V-Twin, if they just quit playing around and put out something that can stay with most of the higher horsepower 4 cylinder bikes. As long as Harley sees their v twin as a stump puller and something only old guys want to ride around on back roads, they'll always be stuck in third place, or worse..
 

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Swamp Rat Rider
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At my age have no interest in anything Electric .. While have seen some Improvements over time still has a long way to go especially in the Price and Length of Driving Distance .. Being retired have no need for a commuter for work and most my Drive are at least 200 miles one way .. Not even sure this will be feasible for my kids who are in their Mid to late 40's but for my grandkids yes is something they will need to consider ..
 

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American Legion Rider
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I don't know Gater. I'm slowly switching my gas implements used in my yard to electric. The way they are improving motorcycles and the batteries, I'm not marking them out just yet. It might happen. Especially as I downsize. But that distance thing must be addresses so I agree there. If they get a 250 distance with a 30 minute full recharge, they'll have it and then consideration will be in order. But I do think it's coming. Now we might not see it though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If they get a 250 distance with a 30 minute full recharge, they'll have it and then consideration will be in order. But I do think it's coming. Now we might not see it though.
I agree with both. I think its coming, but most likely not in our lifetime. But even if so, for myself I still like operating the machine, clutch, gears, gauges and such. I like the looks, feel, smell and all the sensations that comes with riding a gas powered motor. I don't know if I would ever give that up to a motor that just hums and only has a battery meter gauge (which I'd probably be watching all the time).
 
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American Legion Rider
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I thought I'd be watching the TPMS on my bike too but in reality
I set it to look at it once after rolling down the road cold then forget
about it and hope I never see it again. The only time I'll see it again
is if I start getting a rapid loss of air. But yes, at first that all I did
was watch it. Big waste of time and attention. Probably more like
a fuel gauge where you get the feeling of how many miles you can
go so don't watch the gauge all that much. I don't know, maybe not.
 

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Moderator - Loves All Motorcycles
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It's sad because someone like me is exactly who Harley wants to attract. I have decent income, love the LiveWire, and would definitely buy one...if money were no object.

30 stacks is a lot to spend on a bike, so naturally I'm going to start comparing it to what else I could get for the same cash. I could get a faster EV bike that gets more range from a company that's been building EV bikes for far longer for nearly 10 thousand less. But, the Harley looks better and with its water cooling system, should last longer. I could also get the fastest production bike ever for 10 thousand less as well...Oof. Either way, the numbers aren't in Harley's favour on the LiveWire.

Electric scooters and mopeds are going to be what most people can afford and if the Harley moped/scooter thing comes with a removable battery and a good price? It'll be a knock out of the park. A big problem with EV bikes/scooters is that a lot of them don't have an easily removable battery and are heavy, so the city dwellers they're meant to serve can't even charge the bloody things. A removable battery and a light frame will change the game for whoever could bring such to market.
 
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It's sad because someone like me is exactly who Harley wants to attract. I have decent income, love the LiveWire, and would definitely buy one...if money were no object.

30 stacks is a lot to spend on a bike, so naturally I'm going to start comparing it to what else I could get for the same cash. I could get a faster EV bike that gets more range from a company that's been building EV bikes for far longer for nearly 10 thousand less. But, the Harley looks better and with its water cooling system, should last longer. I could also get the fastest production bike ever for 10 thousand less as well...Oof. Either way, the numbers aren't in Harley's favour on the LiveWire.

Electric scooters and mopeds are going to be what most people can afford and if the Harley moped/scooter thing comes with a removable battery and a good price? It'll be a knock out of the park. A big problem with EV bikes/scooters is that a lot of them don't have an easily removable battery and are heavy, so the city dwellers they're meant to serve can't even charge the bloody things. A removable battery and a light frame will change the game for whoever could bring such to market.
I do not understand WTF they were thinking with that bike. For years we've been hearing how HD wants to attract younger riders. The two biggest complaints I hear from younger riders is the price and the weight of HDs. So how is a $30K electric motorcycle supposed attract younger riders?! I just don't get it. Most of the people who can afford a Livewire seem to be The Olde Guard who hate anything new and want nothing to do with electric bikes.

I think the upcoming Bronx has much more potential as far as getting younger people into HDs but even that bike will most likely be too expensive.
 

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Nightfly
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People who can afford to buy and own high end cars do not complain about their price. In the scheme of things Ferrari doesn't make many cars. Neither do Lamborghini, nor any of the exotic vehicles we read about. And it wasn't that long ago that a new Ferrari was not known for its reliability. In fact they were down right unreliable, and cost a fortune to keep them running, and still do, but they are a lot more reliable these days.

All exotics were of the same caliber years ago, not reliable, always needing work done on them and high priced. You may not put Harley in the same circle but in a way they are. Compared to Harley, Honda dwarfs them by a hundred times. They sell millions and millions of bikes to a couple hundred thousand that Harley sells. You say how can that be, I see Harley's everywhere I go. And so do I. Could be that many of those Harley's are old, many are vintage and are still turning over the odometer and keep chugging onward.

I was at my local Harley dealer today and saw a couple Sportsters that were 12 to 14 years old selling for almost what they sold for when new. I don't know if they qualify to be in the same circle as Ferrari and that ilk, but then why not. They are making much better engine and drive-trains on their bikes and the quality has improved greatly, because it had to. As did Ferrari and others or they weren't going to sell their product. Honda didn't always produce top quality product, but they realized that it would be necessary and cost effective to build quality into their product. Something Americans may not have ever done without that push from the Japanese builders.

I do agree, and have stated so earlier, that the Livewire is a mistake. Decent idea but price is way out of line. 30k is not practical in my opinion, but then it takes people with money to buy for the price to come down. I just don't see that happening with the livewire.
 

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I was close to buying an electric about a year ago. My job was downtown Boston and an electric was an ideal solution for my commute. It would have been a Zero... lower price, better charging capabilities and mileage than the Livewire. I changed jobs and I'm back to a highway commute so electric is less practical at this point.

Harley is banking on image to sell the Livewire but the people interested in electrics aren't the ones enamored by the Harley image.
 

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I believe electrics are the future but the future is right now. Harley along with many companies understands a good electric will be the hot seller and the typical V-twin will simply vanish. The one area HD really falls flat in is their lack of understanding finances. 36k is not going to attract any buyers who are looking into economical adventure bikes. Many better electrics are available at half that price. I only paid $3800 for my 2013 Brammo Empulse R and it will go head to head with most including the Livewire. Electric bycycles are available for about 1k so the key here is not the range or where do I charge but how much will people pay for a name brand? BTW free charge stations are everywhere and the average cost per mile on an electric motorcycle is not quite one cent per mile if charged at home. I think it figures out to about 685mpg in fuel talk.
61553
 

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Nightfly
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I believe electrics are the future but the future is right now. Harley along with many companies understands a good electric will be the hot seller and the typical V-twin will simply vanish. The one area HD really falls flat in is their lack of understanding finances. 36k is not going to attract any buyers who are looking into economical adventure bikes. Many better electrics are available at half that price. I only paid $3800 for my 2013 Brammo Empulse R and it will go head to head with most including the Livewire. Electric bycycles are available for about 1k so the key here is not the range or where do I charge but how much will people pay for a name brand? BTW free charge stations are everywhere and the average cost per mile on an electric motorcycle is not quite one cent per mile if charged at home. I think it figures out to about 685mpg in fuel talk. View attachment 61553
Electrics will eventually find their niche but they will never take over the motorcycle field. The V Twill will not vanish but will keep being improved. As people actually think about and begin to realize what really goes into making the battery for electric vehicles and the rare earth materials and such that must be imported, not to mention the huge cost of battery replacement, and then there is the recharge time, and all the energy needed to produce them, they will fall in a little niche of their own. Nor does the Harley LiveWire sell for 36K in the States, although in Canada you might be paying that amount..
 

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The Brammo had a lot of research and competition behind it. A local guy uses an E bike to go back and forth to work. Cheap enuf he bought another one for the summer. $5K each. I have said before they are easy enuf to build. We have many types of E bikes on the Island. The Live wyre is fairly quick, but so is a used sport bike for $3,000. UK
 

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Nightfly
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Signs did point toward the Empulse becoming a success. Brammo had secured the investment necessary to put it into production. It was winning races around the world. The company signed major manufacturing partnerships that could have given it the scale necessary to respond to huge demand. But that demand never really materialized, in large part because, at nearly $20,000, the Empulse cost more than twice as much as the internal-combustion-engine bikes Brammo identified as the competition. Rights to the Empulse were eventually acquired by Polaris, which sold the bike under its Victory brand. When that brand went under a couple years ago, it took the Empulse with it.

Most of these start up brands, while decent bikes and well researched, do not have the infrastructure of service built in that Harley does. I think the LiveWire was seen as an opening for Harley to bring other smaller less expensive bikes to the sales floor. And they are already doing that. Driving interest in EV bikes was the main reason for the LiveWire. Or, if you wish to use the obsolete spelling try live wyre.
 

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While both current motorcycles and electrics insert pollution into the environment during the build process the carbon fueled vehicle will continue to pollute for it's entire life which on average is 20 years. Once built an electric produces zero pollution and can and will most likely be recharged via solar or wind. The battery packs are completely recyclable and currently have about a 5 year life span. As with any technology improvements will be on a fast track. Look at computers which double in power every 60 days. Thanks to people like Elon Musk plans are already in place to do full battery swaps in Lew of charging so downtime is 10 minutes and the life span is a non issue. HD is in trouble right now as the V-twin generation is dying off and young people who tend to understand science realize electrics are the future and the future is now. HD has already announced a push to electrics and charging ports at all their dealerships. Most car dealerships, motels, clinics and parks have charging stations along with businesses. BTW Brammo is owned by mothership Polaris and will be branded as an Indian. I would watch Polaris as a company that will jump on this trend quickly and out of the shadows will emerge - Honda - Like Jimmy Johns they are Sneaky Fast. :)
 

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Nightfly
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Brammo is not doing well. Their merger with Polaris did not last long. They were sold to Cummins the diesel engine company etc., giant but so far haven't heard much from them on Brammo. As for the V Twin, I disagree, it will be around for a long time, You of course are referencing Harley, which most on here hate, but that's on them. The demise of the small block Chevy has been predicted for decades yet it's still going strong. EV vehicles may not put their pollution out the tail pipe but they make up for it with the production of those vehicles. And as I said earlier, the rare metals needed for the batteries are mostly found in.......... China.

Say what you will about swapping battery packs and charging stations being prolific, that just isn't so. The miniscule number of Tesla's on the road don't even make a dent in EV's having any affect on the environment. If you're old enough you may recall a racer/mechanic by the name of Smokey Yunick. He developed an engine that later became known as an adiabatic engine. Smokey called it "Hot Vapor" four cylinder engine he had in a Fiero. Too much to write here but there is still a long way to go on improving the efficiency of the internal combustion engine. EV's are working hard but have a long way to go as well.
 

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I guess time will tell but I am gearing for the present which is EV and will probably be mandated in the next few years. I see worldwide protests demanding climate change actions so that is an indicator on a global sense. In the US people are slow to concede to science especially now but I am confident that will change. At any rate we will see.
 

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On one of my typical day rides on the Brammo Empulse R it would take me about 35 minutes of riding to go about 50 miles to then have to wait 3.5 hours to recharge. My 200-300 mile rides are going to take a while! I don't think I'll be looking at electric for many years to come, probably not in my lifetime. But as grandpappy used to say, "never say never"!
 

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Nightfly
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TriPlay, you may live in another world in Canada. EV will not be mandated here I'm sure of that. As for global warming, well, I guess you've bought into that as well. Thankfully Trump got us out of that fiasco. Global warming has been happening for thousands of years, if not, we'd still be under a few miles of ice. If you are talking about man made global warming, show me the proof. It is not science, it's BS. Like most things, EV vehicles will find their niche and that will be that.
 
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