[Guest]

I have time and again said that I am not a proponent of over regulating Motorcycling. But now I find myself reconsidering the value of graduated licensing of MC endorsements.

I recently saw a report on the rising number of MCist deaths over the last decade. In 1997 there were 2,116 deaths, in 2006 – 4086.

The chart I saw (which I was unable to insert here) shows a steady rise throughout this 10 year period A note below the chart:

NOTE: In the USA between 1991 and 2001, the number of registered motorcycles increased by 17% and the number of riders killed increased by 14% (NHTSA, 2004). Over a similar period in the UK (1993-2001) there was a 28% increase in motorcycling traffic and a 7% increase in motorcycle fatalities (AGM, 2004). In Australia, the number of registered motorcycles also increased by 24%, but the motorcycle fatalities actually decreased by 6% (ATSB, 2002

Since the USA has implemented helmet laws pretty much throughout the country, it is puzzling to some why the fatality rate continues to rise.

Please note the Australian Stats! Coincidently, before I saw this report I exchanged postings with a gal from Australia regarding their ‘graduated licensing’ program.

Here is what she told me. 'The graduated licensing system is experience related. I'm 27 and have been driving a car since I was 18 but I still have to have a learners permit for 3 months before I can apply for a probationary license that I'll have for three years before finally getting my full license. For the first year of my probationary license I won't be allowed to ride anything larger than a 260cc or carry a pillion passenger and for the entire duration of the probationary licence I'm not allowed any alcohol in my system while riding.’

I personally hate to see anyone’s privileges limited or mandated! BUT if it were determined the highest percentages of death among riders, IN AMERICA, were in the 16-21 age group as an example. would you, in the interest of reducing death rates, support some type of age graduated licensing system? OR would you support the Australian model of restrictions being based on experience regardless of age.

The obvious advantages is that graduated licensing appears to save lives, The disadvantage is that it would be more costly to upgrade MC’s each with step up in the licensing (should you desire a larger CC MC).

I would like your thought regarding this issue based on saving lives, NOT the political and emotional ethics debate we always get into regarding regulating personal choices, please.

Ride safe & long,
Colorado Fats

 

[edger]

I have to tell you Fats, usually on these posts I am with you. This one in my opinion is far far left. (or maybe I'm too far right who knows ) Anyway, I am in no way a proponent to any kind of any type of regulations here. Uncle Sam has his hands in way too many things already. When you can sue someone because you got burned by your coffee that you spilled on yourself and didn't know it was hot, and WIN, we have a problem with people being responsible for their own actions. I am a firm beleiver in people have to be responsible for themselves, not continuous regulations from the govnmt to watch out for our own stupidity! We have the highest death rate because we have the highest rate of idiots on the road. Take precautions yourself, wear the appropriate gear, ride appropriately and watch out for yourself or suffer your own consequesces. Yes, there are still those instances where it is not your fault but someone elses, I understand that. But, I would be willing to bet that a high percentage of these deaths come by careless handling of the MC. I lived in Rapid City for many years and went to the Sturgis rally on many occasions. I know for a fact that almost all the deaths in the Black Hills during rally week were caused by the MCists going too fast around the curves in the hills and plowing into cliff sides or other vehicles or going over cliffs. When do people take responsibility for their own actions!

 

[edger]

""""I hit about 60 for the first time yesterday, so of course im knew to the feeling but if 60 feels pretty good what does 160 feel like. I can't see myself ever hittin that speed.
and of course there is never a reason to go that fast lol. But i just happened to look up street bike on you tube and crazy idiots on bike videos are everywhere. """"



This is a quote I took from another post in this forum, I'm sure you've probably seen it, it's listed in wondering how you deal with the wind pressure at 160MPH. Need we really say more about this topic?? Do we really wonder why we have so many deaths??

 

[CB750F]

Right now it's in vouge to ride a motorcycle. Couple that with sky high gas prices and vehicles that get excellent gas milage (motorcycles) you'll get a lot of new riders who have never ridden a motorcycle before.

Sure limiting engine size would save some lives but people have a problem, and rightfully so, about mandating helmets I would hate to see what kind of problems that would cause here.

 

[Aqualung]

I would like your thought regarding this issue based on saving lives, NOT the political and emotional ethics debate we always get into regarding regulating personal choices, please.

But that's the only thing that matters to me. I have no right to tell people that they must do such-and-such to try to elongate their lives, on any sort of personal (ie, not political or ethical) level. Sure, it would probably make their lives longer if liscences were regulated more. It would make them even longer if motorcycles were banned altogether. But I see no reason to do either. It's not my life.

 

[TFee3]

Colorado, I'm going to have to side with the other guys, too. My personal freedom is the most important thing to me, and if it means I have to get "political" to protect it, then I'm going to do just that. I have a problem with seat belt laws, not to mention helmet laws. I see no advantage whatever in graduated licensing laws for motorcycles. They can't even enforce driver's permits for cars! There are thousands of illegals who drive every day without licenses, and nothing is done. There are also lots of bikers who have never had a motorcycle endorsement on their licenses, and nobody really cares, as long as there's no accident. Then, the only people who care are insurance companies who can get out of paying benefits, and local law enforcement so they can collect on issued tickets. I'm sure Australia's statistics are right on, but on the other hand, terrain is as important as a rider's experience, and nothing is mentioned comparing like terrain accidents. For example, I'm much safer out on the interstate than I am in town going through hundreds of intersections, even if I am going slower in town. Even you said on another thread be sure to compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges, and I wonder if you did that.

And I've preached this on other threads - I don't care what kind of bike you ride or what kind of license is in your pocket. If you're a fool on a bike, it's going to get you, no if's, and's or but's. If you've ridden only a week and are cautious and alert, your chances are much better than the fool who's been riding for years. It's the attitude of the rider, not the license in his pocket.

I forgot to mention - remember when the 55 mph speed limit was forced on us? The people who were pushing that were insurance companies and law enforcement, the reason being that they could collect on more tickets, and in issuing tickets, it meant that insurance companies could charge higher premiums. There is no corelation between speed and traffic deaths. Europe has the highest speed limits in the world, and yet the lowest traffic fatalities. Do a little research, and you'll find I'm right. More government regulation is NOT the answer.

 

[Guest]

CALM DOWN T

More government regulation is NOT the answer.

Calm down T, you know us old guys don't tolerate High blood pressure well!

You also know that I am equally opposed to MC regulation in general. I just am interested in preserving life and PERHAPS improving the quality of riders.

It seems to me that if new riders were to be limited to less powerful MC to begin with there COULD be several benefits. 1) Those that are not serious and truely not interested in MCing for the joy and fullfillment of MCing would stay out. 2. Newbies whom are genuinely interested in MCing and becoming serious riders could gain and hone skills on less powerful machines and graduate to larger ones.

If you think about it - you and I did the same thing over many years cause we: A. did not have big bikes easily available in the old days, B. Even if they were available we could not afford them. So it took us time to get experience and the powerhouses you and I drive today.

Before you say it, yeah an idiot can kill himself on a 50 cc MC too! But limiting size and the priviledge of carrying a passenger for a year (like my Aussie gal said), and forcing a MSF like training (or better) just seem as though they would save lives and weed out those that ride just for social status (Pretenders). We need less riders overall, but more serious, intersted, commited rider supporters of the MC lifestyle.

That is why I asked everyone to put aside the politics just for this discussion! I am just as strongly opposed to regulation!!! But imagine the extreme degree of regulation that we will all face if WE, the MC community don't find a workable means of reducing deaths. Look at all the regulations that are coming about for our youthful auto drivers. I think a high percentage of MC deaths are among the young also. ALL MC could face regulation for the failing of the few. That's what is happening to our teenagers getting auto licenses!

Maybe a News story about old dudes like you and me being killed in an MC accident is sad, but if it is about a youth cut down in his prime, with his young buddy, that is MAJOR news... and POLITICAL INCENTIVE! THEN YOU"LL SEE ACTION/REGULATION UP THE YING-YANG.

I don't know about you... but I don't like my Ying-Yang messed with!

I wish all would reconsider this issue. For a moment, forget your own current vested interest in MCing, and think about keeping regulation from strangling all of us. Think about the potential to control our community's future ourselves and add only committed riders to our ranks over the long haul, thereby improving MCing for all!

Ride safe &long,
Colorado Fats

 

[edger]

OK Fats, think about this. Who buys the big bikes? Only us serious riders who want the experience of just being out there, releasing, and taking in the shear joy of riding. Therefore, limiting the size of the bike you can get at first is doing nothing to stop all the idiots on the crotch rockets (which are all smaller cc bikes) who just want the bike because why--- because it's so darn fast and dangerous. How many guys on 1500's do you see doing a wheelie going down the street? Now measure that against how many guys on 500cc crotch rockets you see doing that. HMMMM.

As for carrying a passenger. Well again, how many guys on crotch rockets do you see carrying a passenger vs guys on the big bikes. I can't speak for everyone but one of the reasons I got a bike again (yes "again", long story that I'll share at another time) was because my wife likes to ride along. PS, I love to have her back there too. Why would I want to have to wait a year to be able to have my wife with me on my bike? Sounds to me like you did your share of idiotic things when you were young with a smaller cc bike so did the smaller cc's stop you from almost killing yourself?? I really don't think that what you are talking about here would stop anything. The guys that want to kill themselves on a bike are going to find a way to do it no matter what kind of licensing laws there are.

 

[TFee3]

Ok, ok, I took my pill, and I'm calm now!

NOW, I see where you were going with the discussion, and in seeing how many new laws are being instituted for young car drivers, I also see your point. And, since I'm an honest old far, er, guy, after I wrote what I did, I thought again and realized that at least everyone should go through the safety course. I never have, and even tho I hate to admit it, I've never had my license certified for a motorcycle. In fact, I doubt very much that I could pass the tight turn test on my C90T. It's just too big! I know at my age that I would hate to put my "powerhouse" away and go back to a 250. That would kill me. (Geez, I hope no cops are reading this!)

And, the other guy has a point, too. I see very few kids riding crotch rockets with a passenger. I bought my 1500 because I wanted my wife to ride with me (but you know that story).

There is one thing that bothers me about the safety course. It seems different states have different requirements. When I tried to get my certificate, the guy had me turn around in an alley that someone on a scooter couldn't make. (I dumped my 550 at his feet.) There would have to be lots of standardization among states before that would work. Heck, they can't even agree on helmets, so I can guess what a hubbub that would cause.

 

[CB750F]

Therefore, limiting the size of the bike you can get at first is doing nothing to stop all the idiots on the crotch rockets (which are all smaller cc bikes) who just want the bike because why--- because it's so darn fast and dangerous. How many guys on 1500's do you see doing a wheelie going down the street? Now measure that against how many guys on 500cc crotch rockets you see doing that.

You don't see really any 500cc ones doing that, they are mostly the 600 and up cc ones. By the way sportbikes go up to 1400cc's.

Again I've seen as many stupid cruiser riders a I have seen stupid sportbike riders. There are lots of us safe sportbike riders out there.

 

[Guest]

ok guys, now we're getting to the meat of it!

Now we are getting to the discussions I hoped would happen! I sure wish some of our Aussie members would comment.

I am real curious about the Aussie stats (24% increase in ridership, but 6% decline in death). Also some history on the these laws.

Again my concern is: If WE don't get a handle on this issue, SOMEONE ELSE will.

Ride safe & long,
Colorado Fats

 

[Guest]

Couple of points stand out to me. Registrations increased 17%, but deaths only by 14%, so per registration, that number is dropping, albeit slightly. During that time a substantial number of states repealed their helmet laws also, so that number could be better. The problem I have with any stats based on registrations is that it doesn't take into consideration miles ridden. You could have a bike ridden less than 1,000 miles per year and one ridden 20K. Deaths per mile ridden would be a much more telling stat.

Also, graduated licensing for 16-21 year olds is a great idea for both bikes and cars, but a lot of the studies are showing that the greatest number of wrecks outside that category is in the over 40 set, and it's going to be hard to convince them that they need training and experience, even though it is true if they're a new rider.

In most countries, driving is considered a privilege, in the US it's considered a right and any changes are hard to come by. I know a lot of people that shouldn't be driving, including the older than dirt guy in the 1974 Malibu that pulled out and almost killed me on the way to work today. Love those dual front disks, they literally saved me from hitting him.

Hey, I'm not the biggest crackpot on this issue for a change.

 

[Guest]

OK Fats, think about this. Who buys the big bikes? Only us serious riders who want the experience of just being out there, releasing, and taking in the shear joy of riding. Therefore, limiting the size of the bike you can get at first is doing nothing to stop all the idiots on the crotch rockets (which are all smaller cc bikes) who just want the bike because why--- because it's so darn fast and dangerous. How many guys on 1500's do you see doing a wheelie going down the street? Now measure that against how many guys on 500cc crotch rockets you see doing that. HMMMM.

I'd venture a guess though that you see more crotch rockets wearing helmets than you do 1,500 cruisers, so danger abounds among all demographics.

 

[edger]

Well, I can't answer you on that one, in my state we have a helmet law so everyone I see is wearing a helmet. BTW, even if we didn't I would be wearing one anyway.
Back to CB750's response, I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I never said all I just said compare the number of. Yes you do see idiots on cruisers as well, its just that from what I see on a daily basis on the streets, its usually the guys on the "sport bikes" that are doing the wheelies down the street and racing from the stop lights and the list goes on. You know as well as I, you have a bike, you notice them more. So I do notice. I have no problem here with maybe making it mandatory to take a safety course, but I really think thats as far as it should go. How regulated are hand guns? They are extremely regulated, yet if you want to kill someone with one, you will not have a problem getting one. I don't think regulations will solve anything. It all boils down to, the guy who wants to be an idiot, will be an idiot no matter what you tell, teach or show him. For the law to say, "you can't buy that bike because its too big for you" is rediculous. This is still America and if I have the money and want to buy something, then yes that is my "right". Maybe I don't have the money to buy a small one now then a big one later. I'm sorry I just can't buy into the small bike, safe bike idea. Its just not gonna work for me. I don't see it.

 

[CB750F]

I wasn't offended at all. I was just saying I see just as many bonehead riders on cruisers as I do on sportbikes. The area I live in cruisers are more popular that sportbikes ( I see more cruisers than sportbikes). There probably are more boneheaded riders on sportbikes though. I just don't like being lumped into a catagory, not that you did that or anything just saying.

The sport type folks get a bad rap, and believe me I understand why. I ride a sport type ATV (race type, 2wd, no racks, manual clutch). I have actually had guys on poker runs and on state forest trails riding utility type ones tell me that "You guys on your racing machines ruin trails for everyone!", right after he just crossed a stream and went through a mud pit marked with a big yellow sign "CLOSED TO ATVS".

Also, graduated licensing for 16-21 year olds is a great idea for both bikes and cars, but a lot of the studies are showing that the greatest number of wrecks outside that category is in the over 40 set, and it's going to be hard to convince them that they need training and experience, even though it is true if they're a new rider.

So, a under 500cc bike until you turn 21 then after you turn 40 you have to go back to under 500ccs.

 

[CB750F]

I'm sorry I just can't buy into the small bike, safe bike idea. Its just not gonna work for me. I don't see it.

I can in a way but on the same token I've got hurt on a 50 before

 

[cecilbdml]

One thing that hasn't been addressed much in this thread: TRAINING.

It is not necessary to get any training before you get your driver's license (car or bike). If you can demonstrate proficiency in very simple tasks, and are at the legal age, you can get a license and endorsement. Let's face it, folks...there are A LOT of drivers and riders out there who REALLY DON'T HAVE A CLUE.

In Oregon, we have Team Oregon doing motorcycle instruction, and it's almost to the point that you CAN'T get your endorsement without going through their basic course. It's not a government organization. It's PRIVATE. But the set-up means folks will AT LEAST have a couple of days' instruction on GOOD driving, as well as skills that keep one aware out there.

I'll bet that a goodly amount of the stats are due also in large part to WHERE the increase in bike riding has taken place. If most folks down under are riding out where traffic is less dense, and in more open (dirt) country, the fatalities will be far lower. Of course, our mates down under have also proven themselves to be rather robust, as far as taking a punch and the like.

Maybe there's something ELSE we need to look at here...

 

[Guest]

Good point

One thing that hasn't been addressed much in this thread: TRAINING.

It is not necessary to get any training before you get your driver's license (car or bike). If you can demonstrate proficiency in very simple tasks, and are at the legal age, you can get a license and endorsement. Let's face it, folks...there are A LOT of drivers and riders out there who REALLY DON'T HAVE A CLUE.

In Oregon, we have Team Oregon doing motorcycle instruction, and it's almost to the point that you CAN'T get your endorsement without going through their basic course. It's not a government organization. It's PRIVATE. But the set-up means folks will AT LEAST have a couple of days' instruction on GOOD driving, as well as skills that keep one aware out there.

I'll bet that a goodly amount of the stats are due also in large part to WHERE the increase in bike riding has taken place. If most folks down under are riding out where traffic is less dense, and in more open (dirt) country, the fatalities will be far lower. Of course, our mates down under have also proven themselves to be rather robust, as far as taking a punch and the like.

Maybe there's something ELSE we need to look at here...

Good point on the training! Is Oregon's training equiveilent to the MSF course?

I agree training is good, but once training is mandatory it becomes expensive. That could deter new serious riders from participating in MCing.

Once again that might make our hobby even more of a 'rich man's' thing. If quality, longer term training could be made inexpensive or free training, boy I'd be all for that!!!!!

I have real doubts about the quality and scope of a two day course like the course you mentioned or the MSF. Don't get me wrong I absolutely believe in ANY training riders can get. But how much technique can a person get and practice in two days.

You bring up some interesting thought about the Australian model and environment. Still there must be some reason such requirements are in effect there. I was very impressed with the stats showing an actual decline in their MC death rates. I sure wish an Aussie could respond with some background and insights.

Your point on the type of riding in Australia makes me wonder what the MC demographics are also. Percentage of cruisers? Percentage of Sportbikes? Percentage of off road or dual sports?

Intersting and well thought out comments! Thanks for your opinion and thoughts.

Rdie safe & long,
Colorado Fats

 

[mattd424]

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2000/Mcycle_Internat.aspx

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/rss/content/safer_people/road_users/motorcyclists_crashes.htm these site have sum interestin aus facts on them

i gotta say i dont really like the thought of heavy control over what size bike we ride.but i can see a benifit from it.i started on a 600 thinking well i took the msf classes ill b ok.then i actually got out on the highway.i was nowhere near ready.i do wear all my gear and snell full face helmet and ride safe.but i still dont have what i feel is full control over the bike.i remember the first time i tried to open it up a lil ended up pulling the front up shifting into second.scared the **** outta me.so i do believe longer and more indepth training should be available and required in every state but sumhow without raise in cost so much to keep away new riders.

but there was another point made in this forum is very true people will do what they want i was out riding today checkin my bike for sumthin and got passed at walmart back ally by a guy that i took the msf class with on 1 wheel with no helmet.no matter what rules are in place until these people gain control of themselfs its still just another rule for them to break

 

[edger]

but there was another point made in this forum is very true people will do what they want i was out riding today checkin my bike for sumthin and got passed at walmart back ally by a guy that i took the msf class with on 1 wheel with no helmet.no matter what rules are in place until these people gain control of themselfs its still just another rule for them to break

AMEN, you can't regulate sheer stupidity, it has a mind of its own. Or shall we say, "a lack there of". Idiots will always find a way to be idiots, all you do with regulation is regulate the good law abiders.