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Yeah, I usually use Photoshop to re-draw these diagrams to make them easier to read. Straighten as many bent lines as possible and crunch diagram inwards so symbols and text are larger. Then I print them out on 11x17" sheets (or 4 8.5x11) so it's easier to read. Then trace circuits I'm interested in with coloured markers so they stand out. Like this:



Note ignition-controller has connection to sidestand-switch. Most likely won't fire sparks, if it doesn't detect kickstand is up. Or, if bike's running, putting down kickstand will stop sparks and engine.

Neutral switch is unlabeled, it's right next to DIODE, which prevents squeezing clutch from lighting up Neutral indicator on dash.

Logic for allowing sparks is then:

TRUE IF SidestandSwitch UP
OR [ClutchSwitch OR NeutralSwitch]

You can rig clutch switch to always be squeezed or trans always in neutral to get sparks to work. But... as many people have found out on Honda CBRs, ECU selects non-optimal idle-only ignition-map when clutch is squeezed or bike's in neutral. Makes for crappy running off-idle.

Bottom line is get all three connected properly: sidestand, clutch and neutral switches.
 

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The green is frame ground, and the darkened black wire the enable to the ignition controller from the side stand and/or the ground from the aux relay that is turned on by the neutral switch. So, the darkened black wire is grounded by the side stand switch being in the UP position, or the neutral light being on. The start relay is grounded by either the clutch switch or through the diode to the neutral switch, so you can crank with the transmission in neutral or the clutch lever pulled in. The Bl wire is battery power through the key switch.
These are a legally required safety system, so you can't start the bike in gear and have it leap forward. If you jut ground the darkened black wire, the ignition will always function, and your bike will have no mandated safeties (like my '70 CB450 Honda).
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
The green is frame ground, and the darkened black wire the enable to the ignition controller from the side stand and/or the ground from the aux relay that is turned on by the neutral switch. So, the darkened black wire is grounded by the side stand switch being in the UP position, or the neutral light being on. The start relay is grounded by either the clutch switch or through the diode to the neutral switch, so you can crank with the transmission in neutral or the clutch lever pulled in. The Bl wire is battery power through the key switch.
These are a legally required safety system, so you can't start the bike in gear and have it leap forward. If you jut ground the darkened black wire, the ignition will always function, and your bike will have no mandated safeties (like my '70 CB450 Honda).
Did you look at the diagram on this thread?
The wiring on my CDI does not match the connector on the diagram.
I need to figure out how to cross reference The wire and nomanclature
 

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The interface diagram could match the wiring diagram posted by DannoXYZ, as they both show seven connections to the ignition module. The functional 'wiring diagram' does not, as it shows only six connections, one of which, on the left lower side, is either fused or represents the side stand relay-neutral switch input (DZC), but doesn't show a separate connection for the signal ground to the signal coil. Wire colors aside, I think they're a pretty good match, functionally. You just need to find and mark your actual colors..

There are five wires exiting the stator housing; the two signal/signal ground wires, and the three yellow wires. You can see them on your photos, though the hack wiring job has changed the colors. In the photo, the green with stripe wires should be the signal wires, and the three with the cloth covering on the left should be the three yellow wires to the rectifier. If you follow them back, you should be able to verify this, but I can't say which green with strip wires is signal and which is signal ground. In any case, without a ground on the side stand relay/neutral switch input, you will get no spark from the ignition module.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
I wish I had taken a picture of the stator and sensor before I put it back together.
I cleaned up all the nasty splices and now the is only one soldered splice per line
I metered before and after I put the case back on and all was good no shorts to ground.
I have to leave out the side stand switch because there is no such animal in the bike.
The neutral switch is present and I have to meter to see if it is grounded in gear or out of gear.
As far as the sensor wires goes I do believe that it will work with the wires in either direction and can easily be changed polarity to see which direction produces the best spark without harming the circuit.
Looking at the CDI diagram the has the pin outs starting with the upper left pin which is labeled SGND pickup gnd.
1-That line connects to one of the two sensor lines
2-The second to the right pin(pickup/in) connects to the other sensor line.
Going to the connector on the right
3-That line is the fused 12 volt going through the power switch to the pin labeled voltage plus.
4- the pin on the right connector labeled OUT1 goes the the number one cylinder coil.
Going back to the left connector bottom pins
5-I am assuming that the bottom pin labeled (limiter/thacho) drives the tachometer?
6-DZC pin the the side stand that is connected to the Aux relay that makes a grounded circuit with the relay transfered
( Question grounding that line since I dont have a side stand switch yet should complete the circuit needed for the CDI?)
Going to the connector on the right bottom
The last two pins are pretty simple
Please take a look at what I have layed out to see if it looks ok to you
 

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As far as the sensor wires goes I do believe that it will work with the wires in either direction and can easily be changed polarity to see which direction produces the best spark without harming the circuit.
Reversing the sensor wires will affect the timing, by the time distance between the positive and negative pulses. If there is a way to confirm timing, like a window to the timing marks on the flywheel/rotor, assuming it has them, then you want to do that.
Looking at the CDI diagram the has the pin outs starting with the upper left pin which is labeled SGND pickup gnd.
1-That line connects to one of the two sensor lines
2-The second to the right pin(pickup/in) connects to the other sensor line.
Going to the connector on the right
3-That line is the fused 12 volt going through the power switch to the pin labeled voltage plus.
4- the pin on the right connector labeled OUT1 goes the the number one cylinder coil.
Going back to the left connector bottom pins
5-I am assuming that the bottom pin labeled (limiter/thacho) drives the tachometer?
So far, so good, and yes, that pin is probably for an electronic tach or rev limiter.
6-DZC pin the the side stand that is connected to the Aux relay that makes a grounded circuit with the relay transfered
( Question grounding that line since I dont have a side stand switch yet should complete the circuit needed for the CDI?)
Going to the connector on the right bottom
Yes, that line is grounded by the side stand switch or the neutral switch to allow the engine to run, so putting the stand down while in gear will kill the engine. Quite common safety arrangement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Green /white is the sensor
Yellow / white is the pickup in
I have not connected the side stand DZC yet I have a switch and a relay ordered
next connector
Black/red is 12 volt in
Blue/black is the coil out #1
Green ground
Yellow /black is the coil out #2
The two leads that are not connected (side stand and tach) most likely have been preventing this from working
I have a blue lead coming from neutral switch that has to be connected also
Being a field tech for IBM for 28 years I have always said the design techs should have to work in the field to get a idea as to how difficult it is to service the equipment they design.
This is leading to my saying earlier that there is no opening near the sensor for adjustment (What were they thinking???)
 

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I've never had to adjust pickup-coils on any of my bikes in past 40-yrs really. Only had to do couple times on cars & trucks. Probably because mounting had slotted holes to ALLOW adjustments is why it went out of adjustment in 1st place.

Well, seems modern electronics are pretty good and robust. I remember in '80s Porsche had some custom chips in their Motronic ECU to convert crank VR-sensor signals to square-waves. Nowadays, you can just get hall-effect sensors with much cleaner digital signals. But... this bike uses VR-sensor. They probably use some ADC signal massaging to get nice clear signal for ECU to detect.

Just fact that you can detect pick-up coil triggers with rudimentary instruments means it should be fine and useable as-is.
 

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To test for grounding-pulses output from ignition-controller to coils, you can use solenoid light. Wouldn't be able to pick up these pulses with normal test-light. Connect one end to power-terminal of coil. Other end to output from ignition-controller. Solenoid light has duration-extending circuitry to light up long enough for human eyes to see.


 

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Once again Danno has come to the rescue ! .

This system looks almost identical to mid to late 1980's Honda smaller bikes .

I see you have two competent people already helping so I'm going to sit back, watch and learn .

I know CDI, TDI referenced by Danno, what's that ? .

I can't imagine a tiny little 250C.C. V-Twin engine that's very cool .

I wish they dressed it like a standard, then I'd be interested in one
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
What is a full transistorized ignition?


The 'Transistorised Ignition' system uses a transistor to switch off and switch on the charging current to the ignition coil at an appropriate time. Furthermore, the power transistor acts as a relay in the primary circuit. It stimulates the action of the contact breakers.Sep 5, 2014


How does a CDI ignition system work?


CDI Ignition system works by passing an electrical current over the capacitor. When power passes through a capacitor, the flow of electric current immediately transfers to the ignition coil. Now, the charged ignition coil acts as a transformer and allows the energy to pass through it, instead of catching any of it.
 

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THANK YOU ! I hope that explantion sticks as I'm always keep to learn new things, even about ancient oddities like the CDI Honda (and others) used back then as the first step away from battery / points ignition systems .

What I like about CDI system used by Honda is : you get spark
even when the battery is dead .

Yes, I saw the pictures, I'm an old Geezer who's been riding over 50 years now so I much prefer the standard or vintage look....

I hope you get this thing sorted out ere long, just keep on fixing the small fiddly things you find, I do that to everything I touch and often manage to fix things I wasn't aware of by doing so....
 
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