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American Legion Rider
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Discussion Starter #1
Has jail time gone past it's usefulness? I have three cousins. Two were just lazy bums. That is until they got arrested and put in jail for being vagrants. They both came out hating the world and everything in it. Stealing and using drugs and stealing more. Then severed Federal time and went from bad to unbearable.

I hate to say it but fortunately one got killed. No one even knows where the other one is. And we honestly don't care. There was a time when being jailed you got reformed a little at least and might even get completely turned around. Just doesn't seem that way now. It appears that jail time is just to get more vial.

So has our reform system become a complete failure and turned into nothing more than a school to make hardened criminals? Does it work anywhere anymore?

Thoughts.....
 

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There has always been a criminal element in society. Some might make mistakes and learn their lesson, and others never learn.

I was watching some reality TV show and the criminal was upset about being jailed. He said it always happened to him and it was "the story of his life". Of course he was blaming the cops for arresting him. Maybe his life would be different if he stopped breaking the law, but he obviously didn't see things that way.
 

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Jail is a place where a good person can go in and a bad person come out. I have a friend that is a CO at Rickers (I know the spelling is wrong). The gangs run the prison, the guards hands are tied as to what they can do now because of this PC crap. The chain gangs of years ago, where inmates actually had to work, are long gone. Now they get free room and board, free this free that, yet we have veterans living on the streets with nothing.
 

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American Legion Rider
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Discussion Starter #6
I've never met a crook that I liked or that was reformed in prison.
And that's my point. The system seems to have done a 180. Now instead of releasing some that are reformed, it looks like they all come out even worse than when they went in. So why are we allowing that?
 

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If they were good people, they wouldn't have ended up in prison.
I don't agree with this statement. A buddy of mine was hunting, he accidently shot someone who was walking through the woods. The person was walking through a known hunting area in hunting season wearing camo with no orange markings to identify himself. Buddy shot at a deer not seeing this person. He was a good guy who spent 5 months in prison while they determined he wasn't at fault. Came out a drug addict and alcoholic.
 

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Jail is a place where a good person can go in and a bad person come out. I have a friend that is a CO at Rickers (I know the spelling is wrong). The gangs run the prison, the guards hands are tied as to what they can do now because of this PC crap. The chain gangs of years ago, where inmates actually had to work, are long gone. Now they get free room and board, free this free that, yet we have veterans living on the streets with nothing.
not all of them, check out Sheriff Joe Arpaio http://www.mcso.org/About/Sheriff.aspx and his Tent City http://www.mcso.org/JailInformation/TentCity.aspx

he's the guy that was in the news before for having the inmates wear pink clothes, live in tents, work in chain gangs to make minimal money and use it to pay for food....he even got rid of cable until he was told that the Federal Govt. said he had to provide it (can't be cruel....they have to be able to watch T.V.) so he put the cable back in, but restricted the channels to the Weather Channel and Disney....

and if I remember right, he recently (last couple of years) started chain gangs for women in prison also so he didn't get in trouble for discrimination....

but to answer your question Hog.....no I don't think the jails are very good at "Rehabilitating" inmates.....they learn how to be better criminals while in there....
 

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Troublemaker
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Jail was never intended for rehabilitation, it was meant to be a way to control the criminals and keep them off the streets. If they were incarcerated, nobody had to look for them or worry about them committing more crimes.
 

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Jail was never intended for rehabilitation, it was meant to be a way to control the criminals and keep them off the streets. If they were incarcerated, nobody had to look for them or worry about them committing more crimes.
jail was always meant for rehabilitation....that's why there are different sentences for different crimes, if it was just to keep them off the street every sentence would be life....
 

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Troublemaker
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Rehabilitation is meant for fixing damaged minds. There is no rehabilitation in jail, they are just prisoners that are there because they committed a crime. Different length jail sentences are for different levels of crime. Unless they are sentenced to a mental type incarceration, they get no rehabilitation. Sometimes a jailed person will think of what they did and maybe try to not do it again, but that is up to them, not the system.
 

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ZAMM Fanatic
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Has jail time gone past it's usefulness?
What we're doing now clearly isn't working. The original goals were:

Punishment (pay your debt to society, get out...)
Deterrence (lesson to others that crime doesn't pay)
Isolation (can't commit MORE crimes while locked away)
Rehabilitation (more of a joke than an actual goal)

With the Internet no felon can ever escape his or her past anymore. Their debt to society is NEVER considered "paid in full" anymore. Most get locked out of decent jobs.

Isolation only works until an individual is released.

With the money we spend on incarceration we could give every single prisoner training in trades that would make them IMMEDIATELY employable the day they are released....plumbing, auto repair, welding, MC repair, carpentry...

Hard drug addiction/abuse is the wildcard in the deck. Until it is treated as a medical issue rather than a criminal one, and the INDIVIDUAL chooses recovery over continued addiction, he or she will inevitably return to a life of crime even with a highly marketable skill.

So yeah. We could and should do ANYTHING, at almost ANY expense, to avoid incarcerating individuals who come out WORSE prepared for life than when they went in. Nothing is more expensive than jail/prison.
 

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Nightfly
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If we believe people in jail are there to be reformed, reeducated or rehabilitated we are sadly mistaken. That was a misconception perpetrated by politicians and do-gooders to get people to buy into the theory that building better more expensive jails and giving longer prison sentences will allow a better form of criminal back onto the streets. Bogus from the beginning. Like everything else, it's all about the money. The prison system has grown into a multi-billion dollar business, and growing every year. Similar to the education system in this country. If we just "invested" a little more money in our education system, Johnny wouldn't be so stupid.

Prison is the Harvard of criminal reeducation. If you really want to learn how to be a B&E guy, that would be breaking and entering, prison is where you'll get your best B&E training and most other forms of criminal activity. You're not exactly hanging around with Mensa candidates in the slammer.
 

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American Legion Rider
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Discussion Starter #14
Guess I didn't realize it was a political failure. I thought it went down hill when the general population went soft on punishment. Death was at one time a pretty good deterrent but we seem to not want to get rid of the true scum with the misguided notion that they may be innocent of some crime. Alleged murder with eye witnesses stay on death row for life.

I'm still for 3 strikes you're out. Look at all the donor organs to be had. If we truly started using death we might turn it around but if it's politics getting in the way then even that won't work. I guess the bleeding hearts buy the political excuses. But 3 strikes your out still sounds good to me. Drunks, druggies, murderers everyone. Use your appeals then that's it. If you haven't turned your life around it's your choice then. Guess that's just too simple.
 

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Troublemaker
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Most politicians would be on death row if it was three strikes and you're out. That is one reason they don't punish everyone equally.
 

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American Legion Rider
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Discussion Starter #16
Now you just gave me one more reason I like that idea!!!:D
 

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What we're doing now clearly isn't working. The original goals were:

Punishment (pay your debt to society, get out...)
Deterrence (lesson to others that crime doesn't pay)
Isolation (can't commit MORE crimes while locked away)
Rehabilitation (more of a joke than an actual goal)

With the Internet no felon can ever escape his or her past anymore. Their debt to society is NEVER considered "paid in full" anymore. Most get locked out of decent jobs.

Isolation only works until an individual is released.

With the money we spend on incarceration we could give every single prisoner training in trades that would make them IMMEDIATELY employable the day they are released....plumbing, auto repair, welding, MC repair, carpentry...

Hard drug addiction/abuse is the wildcard in the deck. Until it is treated as a medical issue rather than a criminal one, and the INDIVIDUAL chooses recovery over continued addiction, he or she will inevitably return to a life of crime even with a highly marketable skill.

So yeah. We could and should do ANYTHING, at almost ANY expense, to avoid incarcerating individuals who come out WORSE prepared for life than when they went in. Nothing is more expensive than jail/prison.
I understand your line of thought here, but I must say that after I was burglarized, I agree with much less of it than I did before. The slap on the wrist punishment that some of these guys get is simply amazing. If you add all the costs of having these slugs outside of prison,it seems to me that the cost on society is much greater than having them locked up.

I almost think that the lawyers and judges see how many times they can drag these guys in for this procedure and that hearing is just to milk the system for court costs and taxpayer provided attorneys fees. Add up all the appearances for a single crime and put them out on the street because the jails are full. The crooks file indigent status and their lawyer is free. More than once I have seen the indigent set free because of full jails and then the whole thing is cancelled for lack of a speedy trial...

Recently, the cops captured and released a guy because the jail was full. The very next day,they incarcerated a dog owner with no license and a guy with a failure to maintain his drivers license and you will never convince me that these guys deserved jail more than did the guy with a felony arrest warrant. But if you want to have a dog or drive a car, they know that they will get your money and using the jail to collect it works for the government

Add to this the cost of the crimes they commit. They hit my tools and stole them while I was in chemo and the loss was 40 grand. I lost 14,the insurance company lost 26 and it took them less than a day to clean out my tools. After hitting my property once,I slept in an unheated barn in November to 'catch' these guys. They hit me the second time when I had to return home to wait on the delivery guy to bring me a shipment of chemo shots.
Multiply my losses by probably tenfold to twentyfold until they get caught and then released to do it all again. I wish Ohio has the laws of Texas where you can defend your stuff with a firearm if you so choose.

If I were the Sheriff of this county,I would put these addicts in jail just long enough to sober them up and experience hell on Earth as goes with withdrawal. Catch them again, rinse and repeat. They would be begging to be put into rehab instead of being ordered to rehab as an alternative to jail.
As far as spending unlimited money on them to keep them out of jail,well I think that we are doing that right now. The true cost is just horrible,at least in my experience
 
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