Don't go on the weekend. I have been up that hill on the approach to Lombard street.

Give yourself more room with the car in front and don't try to stay right behind him. You will have to slip the clutch but don't use so much throttle (easy to say hard to do)

Is the clutch totally gone or did it come back when everything cooled down? I would get it checked anyway.

 

Critter -- Sorry, I forgot to complete the rest of the story.

The clutch was totally gone; I waited an hour for it to cool down, and I got nothing. So, I had it towed to my Harley dealership. Apparently, several of the technicians said they've seen many motorcycles burn out the clutch control up that hill (hell, if I would have known that upfront, I wouldn't have gone there!). But, I guess that's how we live and learn!

RK

 

The MSF Basic Riders Course does not address using a clutch to start on a hill as an excercise. It is discussed briefly in the classroom. We teach two methods

1) Hold the rear brake with your right foot as you ease out the clutch and give the bike a little throttle. Release the brake when the bike starts moving.

2) Hold the front brake with your right fingers as you also roll on the throttle. Release the brake when the bike starts moving.

We do not teach to hold the bike in place on a hills using only the clutch.

Method two works best for my motorcycle and me. YMMV.

 

Motohorseman --- The towing fee was $150; not bad for San Francisco, given that the tow guy also dropped me off at home; a one-way taxicab ride from the dealership alone would have cost me $50. $150 for towing it & dropping me home is nothing.

They gave an estimate for the repair bill of 2 hours-labor ($119 per hour, total $238) and the parts ($160). So, everything will be about $550. It is what it is, and it's OK. It won't break my bank. My philosophy in life is that if I don't fail from time to time (not just in this, but in anything I do), I'm not pushing myself hard enough. Failure is a part of the path to success.

ralphlong --- I do recall those. I actually started doing #1 at the bottom of the hill, but I got fatigued as I just came back from riding 250+ miles. I should have just gone home, but I pushed myself a little too much. Oh well, lesson learned.

RK

 

OK motohorseman.

ralphlong --- Since it sounds like you teach a course -- If you don't mind, let me just go back to basics for a minute & write out my thought process on what I should do on a steep uphill at a red light with 20 cars ahead of me. For me, option #1 is better. And, please critique me where my technique is incorrect, especially on the order of things. It's embarrassing to write this, as I should know this by now, but I'm going to put aside my pride & just take it all in.

As I'm approaching that steep uphill on a red light:
1. 1st, I should downshift all the way to 1st gear on my approach.
2. Then, at the actual stop, I should hold the clutch all the way in with my left hand (while staying in 1st gear), while my left foot is on the ground, and my right foot is on the rear brake.
When the green light comes:
1. I should simultaneously ease out the clutch with my left hand while giving it a little throttle with my right hand.
2. Then, my right foot should ease off the rear brake.

Did I get that correct, especially the order of things? Please advise. Thanks!

RK

 

Correct. The only thing I would be add would be to practice, practice, practice in a low stress (I.e. no traffic) situation so that you will ready for when you need to to do it for real.

 

motohorseman ---

I agree with your neutral part -- I go to neutral too when I'm sitting for a long time. But, (at least for me), on a very steep hill, it's hard to go from neutral to 1st when I lift my left foot off the ground -- while my right foot is still on the rear brake, and simultaneously working the clutch with my left hand and the throttle with my right hand. I know I'm over-thinking it & all of these little steps should happen automatically/subconsciously without even thinking about it, but on a flat surface, I don't have a problem with that. The pull of gravity on a very steep hill (like Lombard Street) just makes it that much more difficult to do 4 things at once in that split-second. The routine minor hills (like on Geary boulevard, O'Farrell street, Fulton street, Divisadero, Stanyan street, Fell street, Van Ness avenue) aren't a problem for me. I bit off more than I could chew yesterday.

RK

 

Another thing my cramp buster helps with. My hand is not large enough to hold my front brake in and also give throttle while letting off of the brake smoothly. The cramp buster allows me to push down on it with the heel of my hand, thus giving it gas, while letting off of the brake. Does that make sense? I hope so...

 

MONI --- I've never even heard of something called a "crampbuster". I just googled it. Wow, I'll have to order it & try it sometime. Thanks!

RK

 

I paid less than $10.00 for mine and love it. It rates right up there with my windshield IMO. Without it my right hand cramped so bad after 50 miles or so and I had to stop... and after that it got to where I'd just about be crying in another 30 or 40 & just kept getting worse. You have to make sure to get the one that fits your throttle as apparently there are 2 different sizes. But as I said above, it also helps to be able to use the front brake on a hill & take off.

 

I did get the narrower one so that I could have my full hand on the throttle and it would be off to my right. Not often, but sometimes you want to just hold the throttle...

 

MONI -- Thanks!

 

Hey I hope it helps you too. I have ridden 500 mile days since I got mine and my hand never gets to hurting anymore. Plus it really does help on the take off thing...Good Luck to you and I hope you get your bike fixed soon.

 

Good info!

As a noob, I'm having similar issues with smooth clutch control, especially starting on an incline. This is very helpful...

 

OK everyone --- Just got my motorcycle back.

Parts: $234.80
Labor: $196.35
Tax: $21.11
Total: $452.26
My towing bill last week was $150.
Total cost incurred for my stupidity: $602.26

The tech showed me the burned out clutch; it was horrible; all black, and the smell was nasty. They replaced all new parts. Minor scratches on my hardcase saddlebags.

I was so lucky to have gotten out of the way just in time last week as it was tipping over. $602.26 may seem like a lot to some people, but a broken leg or arm would have cost a hell of a lot more than that. I feel blessed/fortunate to have avoided any injuries.

Very good lesson learned to not have too much fun in a day. Next short-term goal: keep quiet & behave until I leave to my scheduled trip to Los Angeles next week.

Thank you all for your support. It really helped to chat with people here.

RK

 

keep taking short rides up until the time you leave. Take some small hills, just leave the monsters alone.

 

Muir Woods, now that would be a great ride once you were over that little bridge you have to use to get there from SF

 

Per your suggestions, I've continued to practice on small hills since Saturday. It's been good. No problems.

--- I've been using technique #1 as user "ralphlong" has suggested. Since I'm right-handed, the key thing I have to remember while I'm on a hill is to pay attention to my left hand more & let out the clutch in time as I'm accelerating with my right hand & letting off the rear brake with my right foot.

--- The other thing I'm doing is if I'm coming up on a hill, I'm just psychologically planning to keep moving up the hill as much as possible --- as opposed to taking my own time like before. I'm just saying to myself "keep moving, keep moving".

--- As far as the clutch, I'm practicing an "all-or-none" state as much as possible. Meaning, either I let the clutch out all of the way, or I hold it in all of the way. I'm limiting the amount of time the clutch is between full engagement or full disengagement, which I guess is what "riding" the clutch means. I'll admit I got very lax in the past 1-2 months with riding the clutch as my mechanism for preventing myself from rolling backwards while on a hill, instead of using my rear brake more.

Thanks everyone.

RK

 

RK, it sounds like you are doing what you need to do to become proficient at taking off on hills. All or none on the clutch is how I was taught. I NEVER hold myself on a hill by slipping the clutch or using the friction zone. If I am stopped, my clutch is in and I am in 1st gear, hill or no hill. If the traffic is moving very slowly I get myself moving and again pull the clutch in if need to coast along. Keep up the good work.

 

MONI --- Since I'm being honest here, I'll give another full disclosure, which I haven't mentioned so far on this post:

After I took the standard Motorcycle Safety Course at the end of 9/2012, I went and took a 3-hour private lesson from a local motorcycle tutor in early 10/2012. I did it because I was having a lot of problems with even the minor hills & I was stalling a lot (I was panicking because cars were honking the horn at me whenever I stalled on the top of a hill).

Maybe I misunderstood his teaching or maybe he taught me incorrectly (I'm not blaming him, it is what it is) --- but I learned from him that I could use the friction zone to my benefit to prevent myself from rolling backwards on a hill. And, now looking back, I think that was an incredibly BAD technique that I picked up from him (or, maybe I misunderstood him). Because, I've been using that technique ever since, and that's what probably contributed to my clutch really burning out on Lombard Street; Lombard Street was literally the last straw that broke the camel's back, as it likely represented a culmination of repeatedly using that bad technique since 10/2012.

So, I'm basically forcing myself to unlearn that bad technique now, and to stick with the all-or-none clutch approach.

RK

 

One more thing, MONI.

I think part of what has also confused me is that if you look in the MSF Basic Rider course handbook (Edition 7.1, Second Printing on August 2007, page 36), it says:

"Keeping the clutch in the friction zone can hold the motorcycle in position until you are underway".

So, I think where I misinterpreted this is that I could keep my clutch mid-way between all-or-none in order to hold myself up on a hill. I don't know if that's an error in the MSF course book, but that's how I read it. And, since the friction zone is technically a "region of partial engagement" (page 20 of that book), I was using the friction zone to start out on a hill. And, most likely repeated use of that technique lead me to burn out my clutch.

RK

 

I will try to find my book tomorrow & see what all it says.
That might be ok for a very short hold time...Like at a stop sign or flashing red light where you are not staying stopped long. Sometimes at those I don't even need to put my feet down. But I would not hold my bike at a stop light with my clutch.

 

MONI --- Here is the whole paragraph from page 36 on the topic of "Hills" in the MSF Basic Rider Course booklet. (You can download the PDF version on-line at:
http://www.msf-usa.org/CurriculumMaterials/BRCHandbook2009.pdf

"Just as it is important to match gears to road speed on level terrain, a rider must determine the best gear for riding in hilly country. A lower gear should be used for steep grades, both in ascending to maintain power and maneuvering speed, and in descending to use engine braking to help control speed. Total stopping distance increases on a downgrade, so allowing extra following distance is appropriate. Special skill is required to start out on a hill. A good technique is to apply a brake to prevent the motorcycle from rolling backward while you move the clutch to the friction zone. Often the rear brake is used; but, if you need to keep both feet down for balance, you could use the front brake while easing out the clutch into the friction zone until you can release the brake and apply some throttle. Keeping the clutch in the friction zone can hold the motorcycle in position until you are underway. It may be helpful to use more throttle than when starting on a level surface, and you may have to hold the clutch in the friction zone longer to get moving."

So, you can see the sentence "Keeping the clutch in the friction zone can hold the motorcycle in position until you are underway". From my experience, this should be a definite no-no, because it confused me to actually use the clutch to prevent myself from falling back downhill.

ralphlong --- I'd be interested in your thoughts, since you actually teach a course. From your 3/3/2013 post, you said "We do not teach to hold the bike in place on a hills using only the clutch."; but, the book taught me that I can use the clutch in the friction zone to hold myself in position on a hill.

RK

 

And, just FYI to anyone reading this, I'm not blaming anyone for my mistake. I'm just trying to analyze & think out loud how I picked up this bad technique of riding on the clutch. It looks like it's a combination of what I read in the book + what I learned from that private lesson.

I don't know who's in charge of the MSF textbook at the national level, but clarifying that one should try to use the clutch in an "all-or-none" manner as much as possible would really help out a newbie like me who is absorbing every single thing about riding a motorcycle like a sponge.

RK

 

"Often the rear brake is used; but, if you need to keep both feet down for balance, you could use the front brake while easing out the clutch into the friction zone until you can release the brake and apply some throttle. Keeping the clutch in the friction zone can hold the motorcycle in position until you are underway. It may be helpful to use more throttle than when starting on a level surface, and you may have to hold the clutch in the friction zone longer to get moving."

If you read both of these sentences together, in my opinion...it means that you could use the front brake (to hold the bike) while easing the clutch into the friction zone...once in the friction zone you should be trying to get underway...meaning you are taking off. I think Ralph will agree but also anxious to see what he says.

Either way, You are not using the clutch & friction zone to hold the bike in place on hills any longer...right? Don't want to burn another clutch up...

 

Exactly, MONI. No longer using the clutch & friction zone to hold myself in place on hills. I don't need to waste another $600.

Thanks!

RK