ABS & Deer

1261 Views 83 Replies 23 Participants Last post by Eagle Six, a moment ago

Gary Rider

Discussion Starter · 11 d ago

My friend recently crashed his HD 2017 Road Glide Ultra FLTRU when 2 deer crossed the road in front of him. I'm wondering how much having a big bike with ABS helped him come out almost completely unharmed. Unfortunately, one of the deer was less lucky. Certainly having front and rear crash bars saved him from a lot of road rash. Attached is a picture of the skid mark. I was impressed with how long and straight it is. If it was me (smaller bike without ABS), I'm afraid I'd have fishtailed and not braked so smoothly. I'm considering replacing my Victory Octane with an Indian Scout or Chief with ABS largely to get the ABS. Am I correct in thinking this would be a better, much safer choice?

Plant Road surface Asphalt Grass Tar

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RacingJake

· #61 · 3 d ago (Edited)

Steadfastly said:
The problem with Turkey Vultures is their size limits their ability to get airborne in a hurry. I've come close to hitting them in my car as they just got over the roof even with me jumping on the binders.

I've only seen a few that could go vertical must be the young one's, it's the old ones that take 50 feet to gain one foot LOL.

I came up on wild Turkeys flying and every time they raised their wings up they dropped a couple feet.

Had a big deer jumped out in front me where I could of slapped it's butt when it did a 180 thank god cause if it didn't we most likely would not be here.

Came around a curve and had 10 Longhorn's blocking the road, hardest part in not getting gored, they move their head an inch and the tips of their horns move 5 feet.

Turkey Vultures will also fly through gaps of tree's along the road and you will never see them.

A friend had a Turkey Vulture hit his truck and did $4000 damaged to it.

Never had a problem until all these Cell phone tower's went up and folks dragging dead wild hogs to the side of the road where 20 Turkey Vultures will feast on.

Also if you see what looks like bowling ball crossing the road it's baby wild hog's and 600 lb Mama is not far behind, it's a good time to get on the brakes lol.

Man all this talk makes me want to go for a ride, all said it's still safer then riding in our West Texas city.

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DannoXYZ

· #62 · 2 d ago

Yeah, gotta watch out for bigger birds. They tend not to fly and just walk across road in front of you!

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Steadfastly

· #63 · 2 d ago

DannoXYZ said:
Yeah, gotta watch out for bigger birds. They tend not to fly and just walk across road in front of you!

Those bluebirds are the worst!

fj1200rider

· #64 · 2 d ago

canadianguy said:
I'm confused, ABS wouldn't allow for a lock up and a skid mark like that. Maybe he had just the front ABS engaged, not sure, not familiar with the bike. Anyway I'm generally looking for the front brake to do 90% of the stopping.

Anyway, it depends on the style of riding a person does and the experience a person has whether ABS will benefit a particular circumstance imo. Newer ABS is pretty sophisticated and with lean angle telemetry can be pretty helpful, say when your going into a corner too fast but for a straight line on pavement non ABS will always stop the bike quicker for the experienced rider and the term is called "threshold breaking", and off road where the tires are slipping around in dirt and gravel ABS can feel like there's almost no brakes from the confusion of tire rotation and locking up under light braking which then releases the hydraulics, it gets dangerous actually and most off road riders will turn ABS off and TC. Experience is the fundamental advantage in any situation and relying on ABS is probably not how we want to learn to engage the front brake. imo.

I don"t like ABS on motorcycles and it started poorly.
I don't need the bike telling me how to Brake! Especially combinned systems doing both wheels.
Sorry but initially car and pick-up rear only ABS you could feel it just keep locking and unlocking. Very much improved but it took a long time.
I've never locked the front wheel on pavement over 40 years. Twice I was accustomed to dirt, locking the rear off road is very intentionally done. Carrying dirt bike habits onto the street is a bad thing. You've got to lay off that rear, Physichs are against you.
Opinions differ but learning to brake properly is a necessary skill set. On or off road but it is not the same.
Either way wear an excellent helmet and protective gear appropriate to other bodily areas you can help protect.
Ride carefully transitioning from dirt to street if that's how you began, usally young on dirt. Seriously, the 3 clubs are real Been down, will go down, and will go down again. No one is infallible and every one goes down off road. Pavement hurts, sliding tested by material has improved. I still prefer leather myself.

Keep it real and don't always think technology is the substitute for just doing things properly in the first place.

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Joel_The_Mole

· #65 · 1 d ago

I too am confused, you shouldn't lay a skid mark at all if your ABS is working correctly. Looking at the line where it looks like his rear brake is locked up, then released, then applied again is a really good way to highside and get yourself killed, especially on a bike like a big Harley.

I don't want to start any sort of argument, because I am sure there are plenty of HD riders that are great riders and know what they are doing, but also the most absolutely ignorant riders I have personally talked to ride Harleys. I can't even tell you how many Harley riders have told me with absolute confidence to never to touch the front brake or you will crash and the tightest you can corner a motorcycle at speed is counterleaning.

If you value your friends life I would recommend trying to get him to learn to brake appropriately, I could be wrong but it sure looks like he was only using his rear brake here, and it looks like just dumb luck he isn't dead.

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Hank123

· #66 · 22 h ago

The bike in question has ABS with LBS
linked braking system (LBS), is a system for linking front and rear brakes on a motorcycle or scooter. In this system, the rider's action of depressing one of the brake levers applies both front and rear brakes.
So whether he used only the hand or foot brake controls both brakes should have been applied accordingly and without any lockup
I would suspect an improperly working system and get that checked out asap
Take care and ride safely

Reactions: 2

Joel_The_Mole

· #67 · 22 h ago

Hank123 said:
The bike in question has ABS with LBS
linked braking system (LBS), is a system for linking front and rear brakes on a motorcycle or scooter. In this system, the rider's action of depressing one of the brake levers applies both front and rear brakes.
So whether he used only the hand or foot brake controls both brakes should have been applied accordingly and without any lockup
I would suspect an improperly working system and get that checked out asap
Take care and ride safely

Are you sure that is how it works? I am not familiar with the bike in question, but in most linked braking systems with motorcycles that I have run into the systems are not equal. So from what I have seen hitting the rear brakes is something like 75-90% rear brake and 10-25% front brake, and hitting the front brake does something like 75-90% on the front brakes and 10-25% to the rear brakes. So it does still very much matter which brake you are hitting and how hard on the linked braking systems I have seen.

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Hank123

· #68 · 22 h ago (Edited)

Joel_The_Mole said:
Are you sure that is how it works? I am not familiar with the bike in question, but in most linked braking systems with motorcycles that I have run into the systems are not equal. So from what I have seen hitting the rear brakes is something like 75-90% rear brake and 10-25% front brake, and hitting the front brake does something like 75-90% on the front brakes and 10-25% to the rear brakes. So it does still very much matter which brake you are hitting and how hard on the linked braking systems I have seen.

thebrakereport.com

Harley Davidson New Brake Advancements

Harley Davidson has been adding new safety upgrades behind the scenes to keep up with the standards of today’s driving environment

thebrakereport.com

thebrakereport.com

I'm not sure on the percentages just that they have highly sophisticated technology
My bike is old school when it comes to brakes
I'm not a fan of lots of tech on my motorbikes

Steadfastly

· #69 · 22 h ago

Joel_The_Mole said:
Are you sure that is how it works? I am not familiar with the bike in question, but in most linked braking systems with motorcycles that I have run into the systems are not equal. So from what I have seen hitting the rear brakes is something like 75-90% rear brake and 10-25% front brake, and hitting the front brake does something like 75-90% on the front brakes and 10-25% to the rear brakes. So it does still very much matter which brake you are hitting and how hard on the linked braking systems I have seen.

Different mfrs. may have different percentages but you are correct in your assumptions. The Honda Goldwing has these rates when applying the rear brake only. I would expect others Honda models to be the same or close to the same percentages.

"Pressing on the rear pedal activates the single rear brake caliper plus one of the two front calipers. A proportioning valve supplies approximately 70% of brake pressure to the front caliper, and 30% to the rear caliper."

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Joel_The_Mole

· #70 · 21 h ago

Hank123 said:
Harley Davidson New Brake Advancements

Harley Davidson has been adding new safety upgrades behind the scenes to keep up with the standards of today’s driving environment

thebrakereport.com

I'm not sure on the percentages just that they have highly sophisticated technology
My bike is old school when it comes to brakes
I'm not a fan of lots of tech

Steadfastly said:
Different mfrs. may have different percentages but you are correct in your assumptions. The Honda Goldwing has these rates when applying the rear brake only. I would expect others Honda models to be the same or close to the same percentages.

"Pressing on the rear pedal activates the single rear brake caliper plus one of the two front calipers. A proportioning valve supplies approximately 70% of brake pressure to the front caliper, and 30% to the rear caliper."

Yea, according to Jerry it works the same way on HDs linked braking systems, where only a tiny amount of front brake is applied when you hit the rear, and only a tiny amount of rear is applied when you hit the front, and I trust he knows what he is talking about when it comes to HDs:

So you do have to still brake intelligently.

Regardless, it looks like that bike came standard with ABS from what I have seen, and it looks like it isnt working now, so they should definitely have that checked out.

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Joel_The_Mole

· #71 · 21 h ago

Steadfastly said:
The Honda Goldwing has these rates when applying the rear brake only. I would expect others Honda models to be the same or close to the same percentages.

Now I am curious how many Hondas use linked braking... My 2014 Valkyrie Goldwing has ABS but completely unlinked brakes.

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canadianguy

· #72 · 13 h ago (Edited)

Joel_The_Mole said:
Now I am curious how many Hondas use linked braking... My 2014 Valkyrie Goldwing has ABS but completely unlinked brakes.

I have 2 Honda's both VFR's the 97 has no linked brakes but the 99 does.

DannoXYZ

· #73 · 10 h ago (Edited)

Linked ABS usually requires mechanically linking front & rear calipers. VFR uses 2nd master-cylinder down by front-caliper to push on rear brake. Then ECU modulates both front & rear. Here's paper that compares braking-distances of non-ABS vs. linked ABS: A Comparison of Stopping Distance Performance for Motorcycles Equipped with ABS, CBS and Conventional Hydraulic Brake Systems - Motorcycle Safety Foundation

Really telling is rear-only distances where linked ABS really shortens distances. Something is definitely wrong with that braking system in OP.

2004 Yamaha FJR1300 from 80mph:
rear-only: 160.28m w/ABS=152.76m
front-only: 74.41m w/ABS=84.14m
both: 67.46m w/ABS=79.21m

2002 Honda VFR800 from 80mph w/linked ABS
rear-only: 111.46m w/abs=85.59m
front-only: 82.12m w/abs=77.86m
both: 71.84m w/abs=70.67m

Latest electronic ABS is linked and is best yet.

ridermagazine.com

2009 Honda CBR600RR ABS | Road Test Review | Rider Magazine

I did ride the 2009 Honda CBR600RR ABS, but only for an hour...in the rain. Hardly enough seat time or suitable conditions to evaluate a sportbike's

ridermagazine.com

ridermagazine.com

www.motorcyclistonline.com

2009 Honda CBR600RR-ABS - It Really Works!

Honda's Electronic Combined ABS Could Revolutionize Sportbikes

www.motorcyclistonline.com

www.cycleworld.com

2009 Honda CBR600RR C-ABS - Future Indicator?

Honda's Combined ABS signals the arrival of anti-lock brake systems to sportbikes--we test the CBR600RR version and find out if it really works.

www.cycleworld.com

Try some maximum braking like this:

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fj1200rider

· #74 · 9 h ago

Joel_The_Mole said:
I too am confused, you shouldn't lay a skid mark at all if your ABS is working correctly. Looking at the line where it looks like his rear brake is locked up, then released, then applied again is a really good way to highside and get yourself killed, especially on a bike like a big Harley.

I don't want to start any sort of argument, because I am sure there are plenty of HD riders that are great riders and know what they are doing, but also the most absolutely ignorant riders I have personally talked to ride Harleys. I can't even tell you how many Harley riders have told me with absolute confidence to never to touch the front brake or you will crash and the tightest you can corner a motorcycle at speed is counterleaning.

If you value your friends life I would recommend trying to get him to learn to brake appropriately, I could be wrong but it sure looks like he was only using his rear brake here, and it looks like just dumb luck he isn't dead.

Really as I said we have different opinions. I know my age is absolutely part of it.
We didn't have these options when I started riding in 1969, some mini bikes but a centrifugal clutch was pretty useless. Then the Little Honda 3 speed no clutch 70 and 90 cc. Learning to use the clutch was easy so dirt bikes were also a means of travel in town.
Then I rode small street bikes I didn't own but there was no abs, not everthing was even Disc brake.
You had to Learn, period.
Cars, same thing.
We had bias ply tires, anyone ever have blowouts?? I sure have.
I sold bikes and rode everything, Abs wasn't even trusted on the couple of late 1980s and early 90s bikes. Radial tires started but you needed different wheel construction. I am Sport and Sport Touring bike oriented but I rode lots of Harley bikes, generally Harley demo bikes in New Hampshire Loudon/Laconia motorcycle weekend. I went 18 years in a row and I like Road Racing, they didn't want abs bikes.
This is like stupid self driving cars, help steering.
You either have skill sets or you don't. Reliable real technique is how myself and friends ride.
I say No to automatic transmission motorcycles and these systems where you do it sometimes.
I prefer hydraulic brakes to cables, same with the clutch, that's enough convenience.
This are just my opinions.
BTW, Deer are rarely alone. Sometimes you brake briefly but better be ready to accelerate between them. I wouldn't be alive if I didn't!
So younger, or learning, Learn. Then if you're riding a friends older bike, you're qualified to ride.
Sorry but technology has gone too far in some ways.

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Steadfastly

· #75 · 9 h ago

DannoXYZ said:
Linked ABS usually requires mechanically linking front & rear calipers. VFR uses 2nd master-cylinder down by front-caliper to push on rear brake. Then ECU modulates both front & rear. Here's paper that compares braking-distances of non-ABS vs. linked ABS: A Comparison of Stopping Distance Performance for Motorcycles Equipped with ABS, CBS and Conventional Hydraulic Brake

Try some maximum braking like this:
View attachment 80247

You've got me wondering what the advantage is to only having one headlight come on with linked braking.

Joel_The_Mole

· #76 · 9 h ago

DannoXYZ said:
Latest electronic ABS is linked and is best yet.

2009 Honda CBR600RR-ABS - It Really Works!

Honda's Electronic Combined ABS Could Revolutionize Sportbikes

www.motorcyclistonline.com

2009 Honda CBR600RR C-ABS - Future Indicator?

Honda's Combined ABS signals the arrival of anti-lock brake systems to sportbikes--we test the CBR600RR version and find out if it really works.

www.cycleworld.com

2009 Honda CBR600RR ABS | Road Test Review | Rider Magazine

I did ride the 2009 Honda CBR600RR ABS, but only for an hour...in the rain. Hardly enough seat time or suitable conditions to evaluate a sportbike's

ridermagazine.com

Try some maximum braking like this:

So I know that there are some very talented people who can beat ABS in some very controlled racing conditions, I think we have all seen the videos of Rossi pulling some amazing braking coming into a corner where he spends an insane amount of time doing what seems like it must be the most controlled stoppie ever seen, where his back tire spends what seems like forever hovering an inch above the road surface. But that is a super controlled circumstance by one of the most talented riders in the world over known conditions on a properly warmed up bike when he is fully on point competing.

But the difference is I bet a good ABS system could brake at 95%+ of what even Rossi could do on his best track day, but it will do it every single day in every single circumstance, and humans just cant do that. Even the most talented rider in the world isnt going to beat ABS the day they come around a blind corner and are surprised by a deer on a misty morning 20 minutes after they wake up.

Steadfastly

· #77 · 9 h ago (Edited)

Joel_The_Mole said:
So I know that there are some very talented people who can beat ABS in some very controlled racing conditions, I think we have all seen the videos of Rossi pulling some amazing braking coming into a corner where he spends an insane amount of time doing what seems like it must be the most controlled stoppie ever seen, where his back tire spends what seems like forever hovering an inch above the road surface. But that is a super controlled circumstance by one of the most talented riders in the world over known conditions on a properly warmed up bike when he is fully on point competing.

But the difference is I bet a good ABS system could brake at 95%+ of what even Rossi could do on his best track day, but it will do it every single day in every single circumstance, and humans just cant do that. Even the most talented rider in the world isnt going to beat ABS the day they come around a blind corner and are surprised by a deer on a misty morning 20 minutes after they wake up.

Absolutely true. The only time I think I could beat ABS is in a straight line, whether on a bike or a car. I think ABS on motorcycles is one of the greatest advances made for them in the last number of decades.

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Eagle Six

· #78 · 8 h ago

The greatest advance made for a motorcyclist ever is a well trained and skilled pilot. It works on all bikes, it works good days and bad, it only needs to be current.

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Joel_The_Mole

· #79 · 6 h ago

fj1200rider said:
Really as I said we have different opinions. I know my age is absolutely part of it.
We didn't have these options when I started riding in 1969, some mini bikes but a centrifugal clutch was pretty useless. Then the Little Honda 3 speed no clutch 70 and 90 cc. Learning to use the clutch was easy so dirt bikes were also a means of travel in town.
Then I rode small street bikes I didn't own but there was no abs, not everthing was even Disc brake.
You had to Learn, period.
Cars, same thing.
We had bias ply tires, anyone ever have blowouts?? I sure have.
I sold bikes and rode everything, Abs wasn't even trusted on the couple of late 1980s and early 90s bikes. Radial tires started but you needed different wheel construction. I am Sport and Sport Touring bike oriented but I rode lots of Harley bikes, generally Harley demo bikes in New Hampshire Loudon/Laconia motorcycle weekend. I went 18 years in a row and I like Road Racing, they didn't want abs bikes.
This is like stupid self driving cars, help steering.
You either have skill sets or you don't. Reliable real technique is how myself and friends ride.
I say No to automatic transmission motorcycles and these systems where you do it sometimes.
I prefer hydraulic brakes to cables, same with the clutch, that's enough convenience.
This are just my opinions.
BTW, Deer are rarely alone. Sometimes you brake briefly but better be ready to accelerate between them. I wouldn't be alive if I didn't!
So younger, or learning, Learn. Then if you're riding a friends older bike, you're qualified to ride.
Sorry but technology has gone too far in some ways.

There are a couple things to consider here:

You might prefer manual transmissions and non ABS brakes, but that doesn't mean you can consistently out perform decent computer controlled shifting or ABS, because no one can. As I said before MAYBE in a perfect scenario under controlled conditions with plenty of warning you MIGHT slightly out brake an identical car with ABS while you are manually threshold braking, out of 10 tries I would be highly surprised if you could get more than 1-2 perfect attempts and beat the ABS by a slim margin. I give you 10 real world emergency stops? The ABS equipped vehicle beats you consistently, and sometimes by a wide margin. My wife rides a Rebel 1100 DCT, I don't care if you think you are the best motorcycle rider in the world, you cant consistently beat that bike in shifting speed and smoothness or how fast and smooth it can engage off the line, it simply isn't possible.

This leads to the next point about trying to improve, because quite frankly not everyone prioritizes that. There are plenty of people out there that just don't care about getting better at driving or riding. Might be a 20 year old woman who only drives because it is the only means of efficient transportation where she lives, or a 50 year old Harley bro who only has a motorcycle as $60K cosplay accessory for when he wants to dress up in his leather daddy cosplay and hit the bar or trailer it down to Galveston for Biker Rally weekend and rev his obnoxiously loud exhaust at people for 3 days without ever leaving the hotel parking lot before he packs it back on the trailer and takes it home, or any number of other scenarios where their current skill level enables them to do what they want and they dont see a need to prioritize improving.

Think about your position too, you had to learn because you wanted to be better, even being born a couple decades after you I was in the same boat, ABS didnt really exist and automatic transmissions were slower and got worse gas mileage than the manual versions of the same cars, but that hasnt been true for coming up on 2 decades now. There are young people starting to drive now that have known their entire lives that ABS stops consistently faster than a human, and that automatic transmissions are faster than manual versions of the same cars, even under the very best circumstances with professional drivers working the manual. How hard would you have tried to get good at threshold braking and shifting a manual if you had grown up knowing you couldnt ever beat a computer with an automatic and ABS?

Rider/driver aids are there to help and protect the best of us at our worst, and the worst of us at even our best, and they keep getting more and more ubiquitous because they are effective, regardless of what those of us who learned without them may think.

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SemiFast

· #80 · 4 h ago

Joel_The_Mole said:
Looking at the line where it looks like his rear brake is locked up, then released, then applied again is a really good way to highside and get yourself killed, especially on a bike like a big Harley.

I've seen more motorcycle crashes than I care to remember. Looks a little different to me.

The scrape marks in the pavement in-between the tire skid marks looks to me like the bike was down, sliding on it's side (or whatever) and the second tire mark was probably caused by a tire touching down while the bike was down, sliding, spinning or whatever.
A bike might do anything once down so anything could happen but I would think the tire skid marks between the scrapes in the pavement would indicate hard parts making hard contact, bike down... probably.

S F

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