ABS & Deer

1261 Views 82 Replies 23 Participants Last post by Joel_The_Mole, 49 m ago

Gary Rider

Discussion Starter · 11 d ago

My friend recently crashed his HD 2017 Road Glide Ultra FLTRU when 2 deer crossed the road in front of him. I'm wondering how much having a big bike with ABS helped him come out almost completely unharmed. Unfortunately, one of the deer was less lucky. Certainly having front and rear crash bars saved him from a lot of road rash. Attached is a picture of the skid mark. I was impressed with how long and straight it is. If it was me (smaller bike without ABS), I'm afraid I'd have fishtailed and not braked so smoothly. I'm considering replacing my Victory Octane with an Indian Scout or Chief with ABS largely to get the ABS. Am I correct in thinking this would be a better, much safer choice?

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BAZININJA

· #21 · 10 d ago

bweighmaster said:
Skids are when tires are no longer in line .... straight line braking is always preferred ....

Skids are caused by too much braking pressure. A rear tire skid will sometimes cause the rear wheel to slide out of alignment with the front, but sometimes it'll more or less stay in line. This is why the rule of thumb is to ride it out. A front tire skid on the other hand causes the bike to crash NOW unless the front brake lever is immediately released and reapplied with less pressure. This is because you have to allow the weight to shift forward onto the front tire, making the contact patch bigger allowing you to apply more brake pressure. It's not harder, it's not faster, it's just moooorrrre squeeeeeeze .

Yes, when stopping, the handlebars need to be square ( straight) so you can achieve " straight line braking". That's why when you stop gradually in a curve, you have to gradually apply more brake pressure as the bike straightens up. However, when you have to stop quickly in a curve, you have to straighten the bike up first before you can apply threshold braking.

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BAZININJA

· #22 · 9 d ago (Edited)

Gary Rider said:
My friend recently crashed his HD 2017 Road Glide Ultra FLTRU when 2 deer crossed the road in front of him. I'm wondering how much having a big bike with ABS helped him come out almost completely unharmed. Unfortunately, one of the deer was less lucky. Certainly having front and rear crash bars saved him from a lot of road rash. Attached is a picture of the skid mark. I was impressed with how long and straight it is. If it was me (smaller bike without ABS), I'm afraid I'd have fishtailed and not braked so smoothly. I'm considering replacing my Victory Octane with an Indian Scout or Chief with ABS largely to get the ABS. Am I correct in thinking this would be a better, much safer choice? View attachment 80104

The better, safer choice would be to learn how to perform a proper quick stop. Best way to do that is by taking a basic safety course.

ABS is not a replacement for being able to do a proper quick stop. Rather, it's a safety net. Great example: my NINJA 1000 had ABS.. I had the right of way on a three lane road with two lanes in my direction. I was riding in the left lane. A car pulled out from my left. I swerved into the right lane, ASSUMING that he would pull into the left lane. We know what happens when we ASSUME. No, he cut over into the right lane, cutting off my escape path. The bike was in a hard right lean as I was still executing the swerve , using up a lot of traction. I was closing in on him so I had to brake some. Braking during a swerve us a BIG NO-NO because of the risk of running out of traction. I felt the front ABS kick in because I I must've braked too hard too early, plus being in the middle of a swerve.. It kept the front tire from locking up and saved my hide. I'm well trained and well practiced in swerving properly, but no one is perfect. I misjudged what the other driver was going to do and had to get myself out of it. Something like this is a rare occurrence for me; it's the only time I've ever activated the front ABS. Am I glad that my bike was equipped with it? You betcha!!!

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Gary Rider

Discussion Starter · #23 · 9 d ago

BAZININJA said:
The better, safer choice would be to learn how to perform a proper quick stop. Best way to do that is by taking a basic safety course. ABS is not a replacement for being able to do a proper quick stop. Rather, it's a safety net. Great example: my NINJA 1000 had ABS.. I had the right of way on a three lane road with two lanes in my direction. I was riding in the left lane. A car pulled out from my left. I swerved into the right lane, ASSUMING that he would pull into the left lane. We know what happens when we ASSUME. No, he cut over into the right lane, cutting off my escape path. The bike was in a hard right lean as I was still executing the swerve , using up a lot of traction.i was closing in the him so I had to brake some. Braking during a swerve us a BIG NO-NO because of the risk of running out of traction. I felt the front ABS kick in because I I must've braked too hard too early, plus being in the middle of a swerve.. It kept the front tire from locking up and saved my hide. I'm well trained and well practiced in swerving properly, but no one is perfect. I misjudged what the other driver was going to do and had to get myself out of it. Something like this is a rare occurrence for me; it's the only time I've ever activated the front ABS. Am I glad that my bike was equipped with it? You betcha!!!

That's a great comment. Thank you for sharing that.

SemiFast

· #24 · 9 d ago

Deer Whistles.
Just mount them in such a way that they can get Clean Air and "see each other". (Out front far enough = Clean Air). Works for me...

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Gary Rider said:
he thinks he may have only hit the rear brake (meaning ABS wasn't even a factor?).

The skid mark looks like the rear tire was not unloaded when it was locked up and sliding. I would think even a big heavy bike would unload the rear a good bit if the rider was using the front brake to the Max.

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Steadfastly

· #25 · 9 d ago

I am glad your friend was not more seriously hurt. An off duty policeman was killed on his bike when he hit a moose not far from my home in NB a few hears ago. He missed the first moose but not the second one.

As for ABS stopping any vehicle, in a straight line. a competent driver can do better than ABS. However, if you need to turn, especially in a car, while you are braking, ABS can be very helpful. For less experience drivers, ABS is better and with ABS being standard on most cars and more and more motorcycles, drivers are not getting to learn how to brake without it. I used to unplug my ABS on my car in the winter time because it was dangerous in some situations. It almost killed us one time because we couldn't stop at an intersection. I didn't do it this year as the newer ABS works well in winter driving conditions.

Steadfastly

· #26 · 9 d ago

bweighmaster said:
Something ain't right here ..... A good rider does'nt panic stop ... Unless it's just an un-avoidable circumstance ... Good riders always leave an out .. This was completely avoidable ... skid mark too long .. should have released brake to gain manuverability ...

I grew up where there were lots of deer and moose. Accidents were fairly common. It is amazing how quickly a deer or moose can appear in front of you, especially at dusk or at night if their head is turned and you don't see their shining eyes. Unless you've lived in one of those areas, you have no idea how quick it can happen and there is no choice but to panic stop. The video below shows you just how quick it can happen. This biker is very fortunate.

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Carbide

· #27 · 9 d ago

I don't think I've used my rear brakes in 15 years.
Except of course my Goldwing and FJR that have linked brakes.

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DannoXYZ

· #28 · 9 d ago

Carbide said:
I don't think I've used my rear brakes in 15 years.
Except of course my Goldwing and FJR that have linked brakes.

When you're at maximum deceleration-G, rear brake contributes nothing to braking effort. This is why racers don't want ABS, it actually lowers maximum braking force. I still have original factory brake pads on my '86 VFR!

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BAZININJA

· #29 · 9 d ago

DannoXYZ said:
When you're at maximum deceleration-G, rear brake contributes nothing to braking effort. This is why racers don't want ABS, it actually lowers maximum braking force. I still have original factory brake pads on my '86 VFR!

Perhaps racing world, where speed is what it's all about, is different than street riding with all of its unknowns lurking around every corner, waiting to get us. At the reasonable street speeds which most riders ride, the shortest stopping distance is achieved with both brakes. Why in the world would bikes be equipped with them if they're superfluous? Do they not stabilize the rear during stops? And if they're totally unnecessary on the track, why don't they just eliminate them and shave weight?

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Eagle Six

· #30 · 8 d ago

It's weight distribution on the tires. With circuit race bike designs (light weight and short wheel base) it's easy to get maximum stopping power from the front. When the weight increases along with the wheel base the rear tire brake becomes more effect and can be used for stopping and slowing. On the track it isn't about stopping, no one plans to stop on the track and win a race, it's about slowing using the minimum distance before turning. On the street it can also be about slowing, but in addition there are times we may have to full stop. If the bike design size, weight and wheel base is enough to keep weight on the rear tire while threshold braking, then the rear brake will be more effective in combination with the front and help decrease the distance to slow and/or full stop. This is especially true during the early phases of the emergency stop.

Also, in street riding we may have a load on the rear, bags and luggage as well as a passenger adding rear braking power to even a small light and short bike. During training at the Inde track in Wilcox, AZ I was challenged to make a full circuit using rear brake only. It turned out to be much more effective than I had ever thought. I had to brake a bit earlier and hold the trail braking longer and when I learned how hard I could use the rear brake it surprised me how effective the rear brake could be.

I use almost exclusively the front brake when in the twisties, but since that lesson in addition to the front I cover the rear brake pedal in the event I need it for a threshold stop. Depending on the bike and load it could be 3% rear or as much as 20% rear. On larger longer bikes like a Wing, FJR, Harley Bagger it could be even more percentage. The rear brake can also be used on light bikes for a brief moment to settle the bike in parts of the turn. Those that ignore the rear brake are ignoring a tool that can be an aid in certain situations.

For street riders who seldom or never use the rear brake I would suggest getting some training and discover when and how much of the rear is most useful on their particular bike, even to the point of locking up the rear so in the event they ever do lock the rear they will know how to safely balance the bike and make a recovery. For those who have bikes with front and rear ABS, and/or cornering ABS, as well as, linked brakes, find the sweet spot during threshold braking that avoids ABS engagement and add that distance to their riding plan of emergency stopping and escape plan. To find the sweet spot we have to find and feel the ABS engage during training. Then if we violate our emergency plan we have ABS as a backup.

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DannoXYZ

· #31 · 8 d ago

Yeah, ABS is one of best safety features on street bikes ever. Especially in rain or around dirty corners.

Unkle Krusty

· #32 · 8 d ago

DannoXYZ said:
Yeah, ABS is one of best safety features on street bikes ever. Especially in rain or around dirty corners.

There are many of us that do not agree.
My Triumph and Suzuki have the same brakes, front and rear. the Suzuki has ABS on the front.
I much prefer the Triumph.
If you spend enough time at the track, actually racing against the good guys, you get to figure out how much front and rear brake you use. The MotoGP bikes and the street bikes, have the same number of wheels. But my street bikes do not have carbon fiber discs, or anti squat devices.
The ABS on my 4 wheel vehicles are and were useless on straight ice. More modern may be better as described above. ABS may be better for some riders in the rain, but that may also show a lack of experience riding in the rain.
Given many riders lack of ability ?? or lack of desire to gain more experience, or lack of dirt riding experience, I can see why the desire to have, and or bolt on a bunch of rider aids.

A message from 2 small drum brakes Lily. You can keep all your silly ad on bits.

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Eagle Six

· #33 · 8 d ago

Unkle Krusty said:
There are many of us that do not agree.
My Triumph and Suzuki have the same brakes, front and rear. the Suzuki has ABS on the front.
I much prefer the Triumph.
If you spend enough time at the track, actually racing against the good guys, you get to figure out how much front and rear brake you use. The MotoGP bikes and the street bikes, have the same number of wheels. But my street bikes do not have carbon fiber discs, or anti squat devices.
The ABS on my 4 wheel vehicles are and were useless on straight ice. More modern may be better as described above. ABS may be better for some riders in the rain, but that may also show a lack of experience riding in the rain.
Given many riders lack of ability ?? or lack of desire to gain more experience, or lack of dirt riding experience, I can see why the desire to have, and or bolt on a bunch of rider aids.

This ^^^^^^^^^^

And if I have a choice I would take traction control over ABS. My current ride has all the electronic stuff, ABS, TC, IMU, cornering control. Despite my training and skill level, at my age maybe it is good I have all that fancy stuff to help protect my backseat rider when I'm not on my toes, so to speak!!

Steadfastly

· #34 · 8 d ago

DannoXYZ said:
Yeah, ABS is one of best safety features on street bikes ever. Especially in rain or around dirty corners.

For very experienced riders, I don't believe that's true. I know I would have had two accidents with ABS because they simply will not stop a bike as fast as locking up both tires simultaneously. In both cases, that's what I needed to do and came very close to smashing into the obstacle in front.

DannoXYZ

· #35 · 8 d ago

Locked up tyre is sliding and doesn't stop as fast as rolling tyre right on edge of sliding.

I'd like to see these experience riders try maximum-braking coming around corner at night in rain and encounter wreck or deer in middle of road just 20m away. And doing an S-turn maneuver at same time since not gonna be able to stop in time. I've been riding since '83 and have placed top-3 in every class-championship I've raced in for past 10-yrs. I can't do that kind of max-braking and turning move in rain as well as ABS-equipped bike. If you can, that's great. I'm sticking with ABS on my street bikes.

Steadfastly

· #36 · 8 d ago

DannoXYZ said:
I'd like to see these experience riders try maximum-braking coming around corner at night and encounter wreck or deer in middle of road just 20m away. And doing an S-turn maneuver at same time since not gonna be able to stop in time.

I covered this in one of my previous posts where I discussed turning.

Eagle Six

· #37 · 8 d ago

Maximum braking requires maximum traction, a skidding tire has gone beyond it's maximum traction. With one tire locked there may be a small amount of control left for the experienced rider (or lucky rider). With both locked, for the most part all control has been lost, in which case luck may not be your friend.

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wwb

· #38 · 8 d ago

2

When a deer pops out of the woods right in front of you so close you don't even have time to grab the brakes, ABS or non-ABS doesn't matter. Ask me how I know.....

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Eagle Six

· #39 · 8 d ago

^^^^^^ those are realistic words.

I currently live and ride in mule deer country (along with Elk, antelope, sheep, coyotes, etc.). They can surprise us, but in general they are not as fast and unpredictable as those white tail bambies!! I used to live and ride in places in the midwest and east where it wasn't a matter of hitting a deer rather how many. OK, it wasn't that bad but you get what I mean.

DannoXYZ

· #40 · 8 d ago

Someone should do something about that!!! Pass some law or something making it illegal for deer to cross roads not at lighted intersections!!!

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