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Discussion Starter #1
Corn liquor (ethanol) is for drinkin’, not for burnin’ in ATV or motorcycle engines.

This article makes a case for burning pure gasoline in powersports engines.
Most of the gasoline we buy these days is a mixture of ethanol (corn alcohol) and pure gasoline with the percentage of ethanol expressed as E10 meaning there is 10% ethanol in the gasoline.

This mixture runs fine in our modern fuel injected automobiles with combustion systems designed for that mixture.

The problem is running the ethanol mixture in combustion system designed for pure gasoline, like carbureted powersports engines and all two cycle machines.

Sure, ethanol will run in these machines, but it causes a lot of problems.

• Ethanol has lower BTU content than pure gasoline, which means less performance and lower fuel economy.

• Ethanol absorbs water and carries that water throughout the fuel system and engine; steel and iron gas tanks are prone to rust from water.

• Ethanol softens and cracks rubber, plastic, and fiberglass parts; engines used for marine applications are most vulnerable to this type of deterioration.

• Ethanol causes petroleum gasoline to turn to varnish more quickly, meaning less shelf life. This is a very important point for power sports fuel systems that can sit idle for long periods of time.

• Old ethanol gasoline clogs carburetor jets, fuel injectors, fuel injection distributors, fuel pumps, and fuel filters; once varnished, it also sticks to intake valves and ruins the engine.

• Ethanol is grain alcohol, which strips the oil off your cylinder walls. This is especially detrimental in two cycle engines which depend on the two cycle oil carried in the fuel mixture to lubricate the cylinder walls.

You can find a station near you at pure gas dot org
 

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On The Road Again!
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You can find a station near you at pure gas dot org
Not in New Jersey, you can't. As far as I know, they are not allowed to sell pure gas anywhere in the state.
I've been going to the local airport and buying AVGAS to burn in my chainsaw and to put in my machines for long term storage. AVGAS is pure, old fashioned, LEADED gasoline. And it is designed for long term storage, since many airplanes sit for long periods of time between uses.
Kinda pricey though. Be prepared to pay upwards of $6 a gallon. Worth it though, when your chainsaw or weedwacker still runs when you take it out in the spring.
My motorcycle will get a tank of avgas just before I put it away for the winter. That way there will be no chance of damage from alcohol in the spring.

Edit: Just checked the web site. There is ONE station listed in NJ, waaay down in Chatsworth, more than a hundred miles from here. Not an option. LOL.
 

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I never put ethanol in my bike for many of those reasons. There were some things I didn't know that were on there. Thanks for posting that
 

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Nightfly
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Stroker Deuce; I cannot disagree with much of what you say. There is the question of why is there ethanol in gasoline? It seems it's because of the massive corporate welfare system and its massive lobby power. The other question is "should" it be there, that is something to argue about.

Federal bio-ethanol subsidies are 30 years old. And it has been documented these subsidies to corn ethanol have had deleterious effects on the environment and the price of food around the world. It would seem at some point the industry should be able to stand or fall on its own economic merits and stop needing money from we the taxpayer. But government programs never go away, they just increase the size of their need.

Fortunately there is a non-ethanol station less than a mile from me and I can buy 91 octane for my Harley. The issue I have is the price is almost, not quite, a dollar more per gallon. But my bike just seems to run smoother with non ethanol. That's my take.
 

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American Legion Rider
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Here's another thing about the stuff. Farmers get blamed for it's use. It's the furthest from the truth. Most are going under today. Farms are not being handed down from one generation to the next as in the past. So yes some are finally "surviving" with a little extra crop money. Now go price the equipment it takes to plant, grow and harvest corn. Farmers are not getting rich. There is one company, yes company, that is benefiting from the use of this stuff. There are some that are getting some benefit from repairs, yes and a few unscrupulous individuals. But your average farmer is not the cause or the beneficiary of the use of this junk. Look to politics if you want the true reason.

EDIT: Dang Tobacco, you type faster than I do!
 

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V65 Junky
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I am a supporter of ethanol gasoline.

Ethanol is a much better oxygenator than the chemicals it replaced.

That stuff you quoted, while true, gives a grossly skewed view of the issue.

Ethanol reduces power by about 3%. That is not enough to notice. IF you get 40 mpg on straight gas then with ethanol you will be getting about 39. IF your bike has 70 hp on straight gasoline then with ethanol you will have about 68 hp.

That ethanol retains water is a good thing. That allows the water infused gasoline to be consumed through combustion. With straight gasoline it sits in the tanks and lines allowing them to rust or freeze.

Ethanol leaves barely any residue when it evaporates, unlike straight gasoline. The claim that it gums up stuff is grossly misleading. Straight gasoline gums up stuff.

That ethanol cracks or harms rubber is a non issue since we have been using gasohol for 30 years. Almost without fail all rebuild kits and newer engines are designed for gasohol.

That ethanol is "grain alcohol that strips oil off cylinder walls" is such a terrible statement. Running gasoline does exactly the same thing. Running rich is the worse way to strip oil off cylinder walls and it doesn't matter whether you are running gasohol or straight.

The bottom line is that this type of fear mongering is inaccurate and quite honestly shows a poor lack of understanding of the issues.

If you want reasonable debate that is cool. Skewed claims and inaccurate statements are a poor way of debating.

When you get right down to it gasoline is just nasty, nasty stuff. Removing TEL was a great thing to do in the 70's. Adding ethanol in the 80's was also a fairly large improvement in reducing the nastiness.
 

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Troublemaker
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Here the farmers are getting filthy rich on ethanol corn. In fact, my neighbor buys new trucks and a caddy for his wife just on the subsidy money. They just a year ago paid $12,000 and acre for land that isn't even irrigated. They are a family owned corporation, and even after getting hailed out this year, they still made millions because of the government contracts for corn. They are paid by the government for all the corn they lost. Last year they put up 8 new 33,000 bushel storage bins, the government bought them to store the corn until there is room to load it on the train. They get paid for each bushel they store.

They grow no food whatsoever, there is no money for it and they would have to take better care and pay more attention to it during the growing season.

If they were not getting rich from it, they would not be doing it. I'll probably have to feed their pets for a month while they go on vacation and I am stuck here working 6 days a week for the man.

Ethanol is so bad, even the farmers that grow corn for it will not use it.
 

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Troublemaker
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I am a supporter of ethanol gasoline.

Ethanol is a much better oxygenator than the chemicals it replaced.

That stuff you quoted, while true, gives a grossly skewed view of the issue.

Ethanol reduces power by about 3%. That is not enough to notice. IF you get 40 mpg on straight gas then with ethanol you will be getting about 39. IF your bike has 70 hp on straight gasoline then with ethanol you will have about 68 hp.

That ethanol retains water is a good thing. That allows the water infused gasoline to be consumed through combustion. With straight gasoline it sits in the tanks and lines allowing them to rust or freeze.

Ethanol leaves barely any residue when it evaporates, unlike straight gasoline. The claim that is gums up stuff is grossly misleading. Straight gasoline gums up stuff.

That ethanol cracks or harms rubber is a non issue since we have been using gasohol for 30 years. Almost without fail all rebuild kits and newer engines are designed for gasohol.

That ethanol is "grain alcohol that strips off oil cylinder walls" is such a terrible statement. Running gasoline does exactly the same thing. Running rich is the worse way to strip oil off cylinder walls and it doesn't matter whether you are running gasohol or straight.

The bottom line is that this type of fear mongering is inaccurate and quite honestly shows a poor lack of understanding of the issues.

If you want reasonable debate that is cool. Skewed claims and inaccurate statements are a poor way of debating.

When you get right down to it gasoline is just nasty, nasty stuff. Removing TEL was a great thing to do in the 70's. Adding ethanol in the 80's was also a fairly large improvement in reducing the nastiness.
Unfortunately, every bit of this is proven to not be true. The only supporters of ethanol is the government, and only the studies that say ethanol is good come from the same government.

Don't forget, to make one gallon of ethanol requires the use of 3.5 gallons of good fresh drinking water, that is water that we will never get back.
 

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I wish there was a pure gas station near me, but the closest on is about 300 miles away lol. Thats why I have a diesel lawn mower!!

Eric
 

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Troublemaker
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Should live in ethanol country, nearly every station has real gasoline, they sell a lot more of that than ethanol, and for good reason.
 

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American Legion Rider
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Here the farmers are getting filthy rich on ethanol corn. In fact, my neighbor buys new trucks and a caddy for his wife just on the subsidy money. They just a year ago paid $12,000 and acre for land that isn't even irrigated. They are a family owned corporation, and even after getting hailed out this year, they still made millions because of the government contracts for corn. They are paid by the government for all the corn they lost. Last year they put up 8 new 33,000 bushel storage bins, the government bought them to store the corn until there is room to load it on the train. They get paid for each bushel they store.

They grow no food whatsoever, there is no money for it and they would have to take better care and pay more attention to it during the growing season.

If they were not getting rich from it, they would not be doing it. I'll probably have to feed their pets for a month while they go on vacation and I am stuck here working 6 days a week for the man.

Ethanol is so bad, even the farmers that grow corn for it will not use it.
The key in this is "family owned cooperation". That is not your average farmer. Those are the unscrupulous "farmers". They are part of the problem. They are part of the governments plan. It's all political. Let them do this without government involvement. They will fail. As would the whole ethanol industry.
 

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I am a supporter of ethanol gasoline.

Ethanol is a much better oxygenator than the chemicals it replaced.

That stuff you quoted, while true, gives a grossly skewed view of the issue.

Ethanol reduces power by about 3%. That is not enough to notice. IF you get 40 mpg on straight gas then with ethanol you will be getting about 39. IF your bike has 70 hp on straight gasoline then with ethanol you will have about 68 hp.

That ethanol retains water is a good thing. That allows the water infused gasoline to be consumed through combustion. With straight gasoline it sits in the tanks and lines allowing them to rust or freeze.

Ethanol leaves barely any residue when it evaporates, unlike straight gasoline. The claim that it gums up stuff is grossly misleading. Straight gasoline gums up stuff.

That ethanol cracks or harms rubber is a non issue since we have been using gasohol for 30 years. Almost without fail all rebuild kits and newer engines are designed for gasohol.

That ethanol is "grain alcohol that strips oil off cylinder walls" is such a terrible statement. Running gasoline does exactly the same thing. Running rich is the worse way to strip oil off cylinder walls and it doesn't matter whether you are running gasohol or straight.

The bottom line is that this type of fear mongering is inaccurate and quite honestly shows a poor lack of understanding of the issues.

If you want reasonable debate that is cool. Skewed claims and inaccurate statements are a poor way of debating.

When you get right down to it gasoline is just nasty, nasty stuff. Removing TEL was a great thing to do in the 70's. Adding ethanol in the 80's was also a fairly large improvement in reducing the nastiness.
Totally disagree, personal experience with my motorcycle and boat, both where I ran Ethanol fuel from the pump and the very next tank was real gas. Performance was noticeably better with "real gas", not to mention my fuel economy. I have a boat powered by a V8, I am very aware of my fuel economy when enjoying time out on the water. As I trailer the boat to the my parents lake house, I will usually top off the tank with pump gas at a gas station. The very next tank will be non ethanol fuel purchased on the lake.
Again personal experience has taught me that leaving Ethanol fuel without adding a stabilizer to it, in the fuel tank of my motorcycle or quad will leave me with "gummed" up carbs if I leave one sit for more than a month, not true for my boat which I only store with non-ethanol fuel.
Any one can post "stats", I dont see anything to back up your stats.
I agree with the original post completely, as personal experience has shown me that most of what Stroker has posted to be true, especially in aviation fuel.
I have experienced the detrimental side effects in my own equipment. For my two stroke equipment I add about 1/3 more oil to the mixture to compensate. After having the ethanol fuel destroy a $500 blower, the owner of the garden center made that suggestion when I replaced my Stihl blower with a new one.
Compression is the same now as when I purchased it.
 

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I notice a difference if the ethanol is higher. The gas/ethanol mix we have around here varies and I have stopped going to some stations on the bike, but the car adjusts after several miles.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
No Dog in the fight

I don't have a dog in this fight. I simply did the research published by those who don't have a dog in the fight and reported on what I found. Anyone can disagree but name calling like "fear mongering" is uncalled for. Show me the unbiased research that show ethanol fuel is not harmful to engines.

It is obvious to the most casual observer the only people who support ethanol in gasoline have a dog in the fight. Just do a google search on valve failure ethanol gas and read things like:

Old varnished gasoline/ethanol mix hardens on intake valves, causing them to stick in the guides

Gasoline that has 15% ethanol causes more damage to vehicles than previously known, a coalition of oil companies and automakers said Tuesday.

How much of a difference can there be between E10 fuel, which is in widespread use (although not warmly embraced) and E15 fuel? How much damage can be caused by that extra 5 percent? The evidence is compelling enough that in 2011, several automakers said that owners of older cars running E15 were in danger of voiding their warranties.

Automaker tests show damage to older car engines from running on E15 ethanol

New tests show Ethanol-based fuel can lead to vehicle damage
 

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People that are pro-ethanol tend to think that those of us that oppose it are reactionaries and uninformed----but they are the enlightened ones---especially those from other countries. All any thinking person has to do is go to 'GOOGLE' and type in 'Ethanol problems,' and you can read forever

I have an agro-farm, don't grow corn of any kind but I am surrounded by some very large, field corn growers that live off of Ethanol subsidies that you and I pay for. Here's another good read: Go to GOOGLE and type in 'Ethanol farm Subsidies' and prepare to be amazed.

Go to any yard/ farm equipment retailer or repair facility or to any boat retailer or repair facility and just ask them what they think of Ethanol and again, you'll be amazed.

I belong to a Goldwing only site where there are some big farmers that are members and when Ethanol comes up, they'll tell you that they'd think it was grand for Baptisms, drinking, watering their lawns or anything to promote the product.

The Feds are trying to push 15% Ethanol now and of course 85% is already available for 'flex vehicles.' Most all vehicle/ powersports/ marine industry/ lawn and farm equipment etc manufacturers have told the feds of the dire consequences of this 15% witches brew so maybe it won't reach distribution.

All of the Motorcycle manufacturers have told the EPA that 15% will ruin their stuff and if the owner uses it , it will void the warranties.

Sam:)
 

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"That ethanol retains water is a good thing. That allows the water infused gasoline to be consumed through combustion." Except when it drops out of solution and collects in the bottom of the tank, where is it pulled into the engine and causes it to stall. The simple test kits to measure percent of ethanol consist, basically, of a measuring device and distilled water; put gasohol and water in the measuring device, shake, and measure how much water/alcohol settles to the bottom.

I wish I could say 'no thanks', but the ethanol lobby is too well established to reverse it, now, especially here in Missouri, where it is required by state law.
 

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While I worked in the international technical department of an oil company for 15 years or so, I was on the lubes side. I did some work on fuels though, sat on the industry committee which over saw the change from leaded to unleaded petrol in New Zealand and did some work with the Texaco indy car team which ran on pure alcohol (those cars needed 2.3 time the fuel compared to what they'd use if fuelled by petrol/gasoline).

Alcohol (be it methanol CH3OH or ethanol C2H5OH) are partly oxidised hydrocarbons - they've already been partially burnt! That's why they develop less power or give lower fuel efficiency than pure petrol/gasoline.

The introduction of E10 in the USA was because of two factors. Political - subsidies for farmers and finding a use for surplus grain. And environmental. The smog in many cities was largely caused by automotive exhaust emissions, the addition of oxidised hydrocarbons helped control emissions. There are some cities where the gasoline has to contain a level of oxygenated compound - the most effective is MTBE (I think that stands for Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether - might be Ester) but alcohol works as well.

And alcohol doesn't wash lube from the cylinder wall any more than gasoline. As a lubricant on it's own it's not great, but no worse than gasoline as they both have very low viscosity and it's lube 'thickness" which keeps components apart. Alcohol does affect start up, it's not as volatile as the light end of gasoline so maybe more stays on the cylinder wall on start up but the same will happen with an over rich straight gasoline.

As an aside, do you know how to get water out of a fuel tank? Pour some iso propyl alcohol (iso propanol) into the tank, it will mix with the water and itself mix with the gasoline. The water will be carried along through the fuel system and burnt. Have you ever noticed how a bike or car seems more powerful on a cold misty night? One, the air is cold and denser so more air goes into the cylinder so more fuel can be burnt, but also some water droplets (in liquid form) get carried into the cylinder and then expand 760 times as the cylinder fires so you have a normal internal combustion engine with a steam engine effect on top of it. Some piston aircraft in WWII had water injection to increase power - also kept the engine cooler when developing more power because it absorbed the latent heat of vaporisation.
 

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There is a convenience/ fuel store in town where I get most of my gas and diesel. 10% Ethanol fuel goes into my vehicles that use it quickly. Right now it is $2.70 per gallon:)

When I know that there is a chance that my bikes, scooters, ZTR, generators, weed eaters etc, will be put away for the winter, I fill them up with 91 octane, certified Ethanol free fuel, even though it runs about 50 cents more per gallon. Everything I own gets an overdose of fuel stabilizer.

My diesel tractors are filled to capacity and also enjoy the drink of anti gel/ stabilizer they get in their semi winter retirement.

My John Deere Gator and my Polaris Ranger, 6 passenger, 4x4, also get the good stuff with no Ethanol allowed although they normally get used to drive around in the snow on my farm, mostly for fun.

As long as "they" don't just preemptively force higher concentrations of Ethanol laced fuel down our throats, 10% is okay I guess.****

**** Like most things in this country, WE THE PEOPLE have little or no say in anything. The 'Principalities' from behind the scenes, pull the 'puppet' strings attached to all of 'our' politicians, that are truly self serving once they attain office.

Maybe things will get better now, because of the recent elections.

Sam:)
 

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Nope, don't bet on it. They are still politicians. They'll will still look out for number one. Not until everything has short term limits and unable to get re-elected into the same office so they have to live with their own laws they pass will that change. And I don't see that happening any time soon if ever.
 

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Hog, I agree with everything you said Buuuuut- how could things get worse than the last 6 years?

I have been very proud of Texas but everything they try to do that is morally correct is preempted by the Fed's. You Folks, like the rest of us can't pass any legislation, by the people and of the people, that isn't reversed by the Supreme court, owned by the Socialist government and dictated to by the Antichrist himself (or a puppet copy) Obummer.*****

Your Mayor in Houston is sure a fine piece of work though:)

Sam:)

***** Alphabet agencies (FBI, CIA, NSA, OSS etc-etc) please knows dats Ise luvs de predent Obummie and I's jus hasen fun:)
 
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