Motorcycle Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
i have a 2000 r1 and the other day when i putit into 1st and gave it some throttle there was a pop somewhere in the enigne. after the pop i here a knocking/popping sound when it turns on. i check the clutch cable and it was fine and i ended up replaceing all the clutch and friction disc because one of them did break. i cleaned evyrthing up and put it back together how the manual says. after i replaced the clutch i started it up to see if the noise went away and its still there. the link attached is a video with the knocking/clicking noise New video by Jason Wheeler
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
use stethoscope and locate the knock.
Remove clutch disks, install cover. If sound is still there, it is bad. I think it is from transmission. Is it in neutral and any gear?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
i listened to it and it sounds like it coming from the cam shaft chain area in the lower part of the engine
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
did you remove all pieces of broken disk?
Lift rear wheel and turn it by hand.
I would remove clutch cover again and try to see something there. If gears don't work, something happened to clutch or transmission. Does knock stop when you pull clutch lever?
If you remove clutch disks and start engine, you will eliminate 2 possible source of knock: clutch and transmission. If knock disappear, you'll know problem is in them. If noise doesn't diappear, dig into timing belt, remove front crank cover
65228
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
OK, I used astral projection and my superman X-ray vision and this is final diagnosing results:
problem is in clutch. This is picture of me in astral flight going to check your bike:D:
65232
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
did you remove all pieces of broken disk?
Lift rear wheel and turn it by hand.
I would remove clutch cover again and try to see something there. If gears don't work, something happened to clutch or transmission. Does knock stop when you pull clutch lever?
If you remove clutch disks and start engine, you will eliminate 2 possible source of knock: clutch and transmission. If knock disappear, you'll know problem is in them. If noise doesn't diappear, dig into timing belt, remove front crank cover
View attachment 65228
the noise does not stop and i did remove all of the peices of the discs and when i did that i got a better listen and the knocking is coming from either the clutch or behind it, and i did remove the disics and before i did that even with pulling the clutch in it did not stop
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
i left the basket and boss in there but i took out the disc,
remove everything you can from clutch because this is your only chance for happy ending. After that start digging into engine. There is another chance for easy (kind of) repair: worn out timing chain guide.
Crank transfers torque to clutch by its own teeth. If you remove clutch completely and knock is still there, you will know for sure, it is engine knock.
65238
 

·
Registered
70 CB350 18 Wolf 150 19 San Gabriel 250
Joined
·
57 Posts
Pull the cam/rocker cover, pull the flywheel cover, and remove spark plugs. Rotate the flywheel back and forth and watch for cam rotation or cam follower/rocker arm movement. The cam should follow the motion of the crankshaft(flywheel/rotor) as you move it back and forth, even slightly, IF the cam chain and tensioner are intact and functional. If a chain guide broke, it could allow slack in the chain and thus slop in the cam timing(movement when the crankshaft is rotated).
If you have examined the gears between the crankshaft output gear and the input gear to the clutch basket and they are intact and undamaged, then the noise is not likely originating from there. Be aware that the clutch basket rides on a bearing, and spins whenever the engine is running, and it too can fail, but you would likely feel the damage if that bearing died. Of course the center section of the clutch transfers power to the input of the gearbox, but you have taken that out of the picture.
tom
 
  • Like
Reactions: kid-jay99

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
considering bike has no gears, it is likely to be transmission or clutch.
This is how clutch works (let me know if I am wrong, I am not sure):
clutch has 2 drums, inner and outer and disks between them.
Inner drum seats on splines of trans input shaft and spins with input shaft.
Outer drum seats on bearing over input shaft and spins freely from input shaft.
Outer drum has teeth, connected to teeth of crank, so outer drum spins with crank.
If I am right outer drum and its bearing are spinning with crank, OP didn't remove them.
If bearing is bad(you said, it is possibly so), basket can hit whatever is close to it.
Basket can be checked by hand
 

·
Registered
70 CB350 18 Wolf 150 19 San Gabriel 250
Joined
·
57 Posts
That is pretty much how the clutch works. I finally listened, and that does not sound like a slipped or damaged timing chain.
If the clutches and steels are removed from the basket, and the center put back in place, the basket will still turn with the crankshaft. Given that there is no 'drive', I suspect internal damage. But it makes the noise even with nothing in the clutch to transfer power. There will be minimal friction between the clutch and the center that could be enough to attempt to turn the transmission input shaft.
Before splitting the case, I would see if I could turn the input shaft manually, perhaps after removing the basket for better access, and determine if I could feel bits and pieces inside crunching around. If so, I expect that would be the source of the noise.
Inside the trans is the input shaft and the counter shaft and the shift drum. The input shaft and counter shaft are linked only when one of the sets of gears is locked to the input shaft.(by the dog clutch) The dog is engaged/disengaged by the shift drum rotating and pushing a shift fork(usually two at a time) to engage one pair of gears and disengage another(such as when shifting up or down). In neutral, none of the gears on the input shaft are locked to the shaft, and they all will 'free wheel' on the shaft, allowing the shaft to turn while they stay still. Given they are meshed with the gears on the output(counter) shaft, it will stay still also.
For there to be noise as in the video, the input shaft must be turning, and if not, then the clutch basket for sure is turning, and making the noise. Pull the clutch basket and inspect the bearing, and how the input shaft of the transmission is riding in the center of the basket. There is a bearing there for one end of the input shaft, along with a bearing the basket rides on. Either could be having a problem. I must have played that video 10 times...
tom

added... it sure sounds like what a failing rod bearing sounds like in a car/truck engine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
It doesn't matter if engine knocks or not, good clutch and transmission would work fine.
If gears don't work, it is obviously to me problem is in clutch or transmission.
If we think, knock and gear problem are related, then only basket and its bearing are left from clutch and they are suspects, unless OP removes them and start engine.
I would say most likely clutch problem, because OP said there were no working gears.
 

·
Registered
70 CB350 18 Wolf 150 19 San Gabriel 250
Joined
·
57 Posts
Actually, the OP description leaves something to be desired as it confuses me as to what is there/what is removed, and what was there when the noise in the video was recorded. As you state, if it won't move the bike, if the clutch is complete, and turns when the crankshaft rotates, the gearbox needs a real close look, like inside, where all the guts are located.
The video sound is hard to analyze as the normal sound is unknown, at least to me, and what I hear could be a lot of different things, depending on 'what' is there and functioning.
Most I have seen have and idler gear between the crankshaft output gear and the clutch basket driven gear. If the idler bearings were damaged, you would get noise somewhat like in the video as the gear wobbled around and made intermittent or destructive mesh with the baske/crankshaft gears. It could do a lot of damage, jam on a whim, rotate fine, jam, rotate, jump around and eat the teeth... generally a mess. Repeating to the OP, take off the side cover, pull the spark plug, put in neutral, and rotate things manually while watching/inspecting the drive from the crankshaft to the clutch basket. If those are good, proceed on to the clutch basket bearing, looking for damage. The trans input shaft, which is driven by the clutch 'center', will/ride in a bearing also. It would be turning whenever the clutch is not disengaged, crankshaft turning. If you can wobble the clutch center, look closely at the input shaft bearing.
OTOH, take it all apart, and post some pics. 1,000 words saved each time?
tom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Actually, the OP description leaves something to be desired as it confuses me as to what is there/what is removed, and what was there when the noise in the video was recorded. As you state, if it won't move the bike, if the clutch is complete, and turns when the crankshaft rotates, the gearbox needs a real close look, like inside, where all the guts are located.
The video sound is hard to analyze as the normal sound is unknown, at least to me, and what I hear could be a lot of different things, depending on 'what' is there and functioning.
Most I have seen have and idler gear between the crankshaft output gear and the clutch basket driven gear. If the idler bearings were damaged, you would get noise somewhat like in the video as the gear wobbled around and made intermittent or destructive mesh with the baske/crankshaft gears. It could do a lot of damage, jam on a whim, rotate fine, jam, rotate, jump around and eat the teeth... generally a mess. Repeating to the OP, take off the side cover, pull the spark plug, put in neutral, and rotate things manually while watching/inspecting the drive from the crankshaft to the clutch basket. If those are good, proceed on to the clutch basket bearing, looking for damage. The trans input shaft, which is driven by the clutch 'center', will/ride in a bearing also. It would be turning whenever the clutch is not disengaged, crankshaft turning. If you can wobble the clutch center, look closely at the input shaft bearing.
OTOH, take it all apart, and post some pics. 1,000 words saved each time?
tom
so i added some oil to get the video and im about to take the oil pan off, so im draining the oil and correct me if im wrong but most likely that silver streak in the oil is from something grinding, correct?
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
so i added some oil to get the video and im about to take the oil pan off, so im draining the oil and correct me if im wrong but most likely that silver streak in the oil is from something grinding, correct?
and with the bike in gear and on a stand i am able to move it with some resistance
 

·
Registered
70 CB350 18 Wolf 150 19 San Gabriel 250
Joined
·
57 Posts
The streaks in the drained oil are in most cases indications of a bearing or other part that is in the midst of its destruction. A failing bearing, a bad synchronizer, a bushing that is being turned into powdered metal can all leave streaks of shiny particles like that.
"and with the bike in gear and on a stand i am able to move it"

MOVE WHAT? If it is on the stand, what is moving? The wheel? Engine running? Crankshaft turning easily because the spark plug is removed? Which gear? All gears? Can you shift?
I don't get a lot of information from that tidbit.

Either way, with the stuff in the oil, SOMETHING is going wrong internally that will likely not get fixed using a mechanic in a can. It needs dis-assembly, inspection, and likely some new parts.
tom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
The streaks in the drained oil are in most cases indications of a bearing or other part that is in the midst of its destruction. A failing bearing, a bad synchronizer, a bushing that is being turned into powdered metal can all leave streaks of shiny particles like that.
"and with the bike in gear and on a stand i am able to move it"

MOVE WHAT? If it is on the stand, what is moving? The wheel? Engine running? Crankshaft turning easily because the spark plug is removed? Which gear? All gears? Can you shift?
I don't get a lot of information from that tidbit.

Either way, with the stuff in the oil, SOMETHING is going wrong internally that will likely not get fixed using a mechanic in a can. It needs dis-assembly, inspection, and likely some new parts.
tom
i can move the wheel, but now that i thingking about it i did have the basket out 😅 and i can shift throught all the gears with no problem. i also have someone coming out tomorrow to take a look. also could get the oil pan off, there was abolt that i wasnt able to get loosened
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
i can move the wheel, but now that i thingking about it i did have the basket out 😅 and i can shift throught all the gears with no problem. i also have someone coming out tomorrow to take a look. also could get the oil pan off, there was abolt that i wasnt able to get loosened
If you removed clutch basket, you completely disconnected engine from transmission. Now if you start engine and it doesn't make noise, it means problem is in clutch/transmission. Is there gear between crank and basket? Look at all removed clutch parts , take pictures, post here.
OK, now you need to remove chain and manually turn input shaft in different gears. It should turn pretty easy in all gears. Gears should switch easy. (I am a car mechanic, let bike mechanics say if I am right or wrong)
R1 clutch video:
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top