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American Legion Rider
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Does the clutch cable work freely? The clutch pack may be fine but the cable is binding. When was the last time you lubed it?
 

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Motorbike Macgyver
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Bring it here and I'll fix it for you.
Idk where “here” is lol. I subscribed to an online repair manual through a website called Cyclepedia. They say the torque value is 9 ft/lbs but I’m wondering if it’s correct. I’ve ordered a Haynes manual that should be here tomorrow. We will see what it says.
 

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Retired twice: Navy and as a govt contractor
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Idk where “here” is lol. I subscribed to an online repair manual through a website called Cyclepedia. They say the torque value is 9 ft/lbs but I’m wondering if it’s correct. I’ve ordered a Haynes manual that should be here tomorrow. We will see what it says.

Find 'nowhere' Canada, he is 50 miles west.
 
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Adjust both clutch cable and lever adjusters as well as side cover to have slack then sneak up on working the clutch. If all parts are correct then an assembly messup and what every one I ever fixed was regardless of what owner says. The springs you simply hit solid on and I never torque them ever, being springs they self lock to not back out as long as you simply hit solid. Be careful prying on outside basket; you will be loading only a couple of tabs and easy to break one off.
 

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Motorbike Macgyver
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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Adjust both clutch cable and lever adjusters as well as side cover to have slack then sneak up on working the clutch. If all parts are correct then an assembly messup and what every one I ever fixed was regardless of what owner says. The springs you simply hit solid on and I never torque them ever, being springs they self lock to not back out as long as you simply hit solid. Be careful prying on outside basket; you will be loading only a couple of tabs and easy to break one off.
I didn’t do the test with prying the plate off. I gently stuck one screwdriver in and pushed very gently and all it did was make the screwdriver flex so I didn’t go any further with that. I have read online where some people just bottom them out and say the springs will lock them and others say they won’t, idk, seems like there must be a reason the bolts have a torque value but I’m no mechanic.
 

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A spring is incorrect length or hung up on an improper edge to lock solid to coil bind, they are set in length with plate hitting solid on a positive stop stand to then be at the proper pressure. The stands your spring bolts go in hit solid to the outer plate and then set right in that design. So something else is wrong likely. The torque value is simply to guarantee the solid hit there. Anybody saying the springs bind solid once again is misunderstanding what is happening or incorrect parts. The springs on ALL designs pretty much hit solid, it is the easiest way for the factory to guarantee they are adjusted right, it speeds up the assembly line enormously. Nobody has time to sit there 'torque adjusting' clutch springs on one engine much less hundreds of them.
 

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I didn’t do the test with prying the plate off. I gently stuck one screwdriver...
I distinctly said couple of screwdrivers, one screwdriver would never work, you would be trying to pry the assembly crooked, that doesn't mimic the movement of the levers action in the least, one on each side would have worked, but it's irrelevant.
The springs need to be able to compress some or there is a problem. If the springs are completely coil bound when you bolt it up there is a problem, the lever action does not relax the springs it compresses the springs more until they are no longer pushing the clutch plates together.

"Nobody has time to sit there 'torque adjusting' clutch springs on one engine much less hundreds of them." are you serious, it's somewhere between 4 and 6 bolts or nuts per engine and it's a Honda product.

They probably make sure the clutch actually works after they put one together too (y)
 

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They absolutely do NOT make sure each clutch works at least at that point, it being a waste of assembly time and worth more than anything else. 4 to 6 bolts and setting each, you gotta be kidding me, they would fire you on the spot. The design ensures they work or somebody is in deep trouble. I never check them either as I already know they will work fine later and countless clutches done. The height of those spring stands is critical and you do nothing to mess with them including not pulling them up tight. Which I will guarantee you on that particular design we are looking at is a MAJOR mistake if done like that, they MUST HIT SOLID. You will shear the bolts if they do not pull the front plate solid to the stands, similar to if you put a wheel on a car and do not fully tighten the lugnuts to next shear the studs to break.

The 4 to 6 bolt 'adjusting' thing is unrealistic on an assembly line, they kill if they can to remove that wherever possible. It being $$$$ wasted. Look under a typical car made in the '80s andf how the bumpers commonly had up to 6 bolt holes in them and the mounting points but commonly you may only have 4 or even 2 bolts holding bumper on. The company paid bonuses to assembly guys who shortchange bolts, it saves time and parts cost and not frowned on as long as you don't get crazy with it. They often even pay a bonus to workers who figure out how to use less bolts yet still have a reasonably secure whatever they are working on. Now it is pushpins instead of bolts since 90% of a car now never uses any tool being built other than a gloved hand. They think you don't even have time to pick up a wrench and you are going to tighten 4 to 6 bolts carefully...........lol.

Most every Honda clutch I ever worked on assembles like that, The back inner housing floats and the front plate gets pressed in by the clutch actuator to move inboard and release the clutch pack at the back to spin loose. The whole idea simply flips if the actuation comes from the left side of engine instead of right.

It's why the clutch stack height has to be right, if you simply custom adjusted the springs to any length you wanted you could even leave plates out and clutch still work but you'd probably tear parts up when parts that cleared others no longer do.

That thinking would kill you on ATX work. One has to be able to recognize parts specifically machined to hit finite subassembly distances over and over to repeat performance with no having to check all of it.
 

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Ace Tuner
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they are set in length with plate hitting solid on a positive stop stand to then be at the proper pressure. The stands your spring bolts go in hit solid to the outer plate and then set right in that design. So something else is wrong likely. The torque value is simply to guarantee the solid hit there.
Be careful prying on outside basket; you will be loading only a couple of tabs and easy to break one off.
The height of those spring stands is critical and you do nothing to mess with them including not pulling them up tight.
Yeah. There is no adjusting clutch coil springs. When everything is installed correctly there is no chance of coil bind. You tighten (torque) the bolts down till they contact the stop that is built into the hub.
And don't be prying around on the fiber plate tabs. You'll break something.

Is there an echo in here? ... Lol

S F
 

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Thank you.

I knew I wasn't crazy, having rebuilt so many bike clutches I can't count. My '66 Yamaha Twinjet 100, all 3 of my Kawasaki triples and the Honda 550F and early DOHCs all use that same exact design. Among about 30 others I've owned.

And you cannot flippantly discount assembly line time used either, at some point almost every part you handle will show something reflecting on how fast it could be assembled together, it often determines failure breakage modes. I have learned to look for future problems based on it and simply looking at a part in my hand.

The problem has hugely impacted auto repair now as many times the same rationale is used now on parts we used to have to tighten to a certain number, now it's bottom out to the solid hit and stop, it may have a torque number but not needed at all. The bolts are commonly shouldered now to hit the shoulder and part like valve cover is then properly compressing the gasket, there is no longer any going back to retighten if the gasket leaks as the bolts are no longer heat treated to be grade quality (cheaper part to put more money in CEO pocket) and they break off easy as spit to produce all kinds of issues. If one can't grasp 'tighten to the hit' they are going to mess up a LOT of stuff over time. The idea was intended to make up for incompetents on the assembly lines but of course that type is the last to figure it out and the first to get fired for continually breaking bolts.

No insult intended or implied here at all of course.
 

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Motorbike Macgyver
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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Well, here’s the current situation. I measured my old friction plates and found that they were within spec, so I decided to put those back in and save the ebc plates. I put the ebc springs in, snugged up the spring bolts and torqued them to about half what the manual calls for. I tried it, still a little tough to pull. I have an easy pull clutch system (moose racing clone) which I had tried previously but was unable to get to work. I decided to try it again, and I think the problem was I did not have the internal pivot arm set correctly. This time I set the easy clutch where the pivot arm is all the way to the clutch cable side, and with 5mm free play, she’s a lot smoother and easier to pull now. Tomorrow after work I’m gonna take it out and start it up and make sure it shifts, doesn’t stall and goes into neutral when running, but if all that checks out then I’ll be happy with it.
 

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American Legion Rider
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Did you fail to let everyone know you didn't have an OEM clutch lever until now? But if it worked before it should have worked now. I just hope you did actually find the problem and you don't burn up this clutch instead.
 

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Forgot to mention the clutch pull assembly was modified with aftermarket parts that could be the entire problem and you replaced the springs with non-original parts :unsure: now wondering why it is hard to pull.

Maybe it's the aftermarket springs and the moose racing clone bits that were added.
 

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Motorbike Macgyver
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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Did you fail to let everyone know you didn't have an OEM clutch lever until now? But if it worked before it should have worked now. I just hope you did actually find the problem and you don't burn up this clutch instead.
Did you fail to let everyone know you didn't have an OEM clutch lever until now? But if it worked before it should have worked now. I just hope you did actually find the problem and you don't burn up this clutch instead.
It is an OEM clutch lever. The easy pull clutch system is an add-on, and perhaps I wasn’t clear that I had tried to use it before and it wasn’t working to my liking but I decided to give it another try. And I never said my clutch worked before. I think you’re totally misunderstanding what I said.
 

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Motorbike Macgyver
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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Forgot to mention the clutch pull assembly was modified with aftermarket parts that could be the entire problem and you replaced the springs with non-original parts :unsure: now wondering why it is hard to pull.

Maybe it's the aftermarket springs and the moose racing clone bits that were added.
Dude, I just put the aftermarket springs on last night. I don’t know where any of you are getting the idea that I failed to mention anything I did. I just did it when I posted about it.
 

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Motorbike Macgyver
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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
It’s like some people read that post up to a certain word and flew down to the reply box without reading all the way through
 

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I knew the exact thing you put on there, seen lots of them. They rarely work well, you can't add leverage without sacrificing travel.

If you replace things like clutch springs with non original parts, anything could happen, we'd be guessing on what you have in front of you.
 
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