Buell American Iron

[Maico Shark]

Italian.......? Noooo, they are, quite frankly AMERICAN IRON, the brainchild of racer Erik Buell, the fledgling Buell Motorcycle Company's assets were purchased by Harley Davidson in the early '90s and the first Buell/Harley venture was the S1 Lightning, a radical looking naked hooligan bike, followed by the the S2/S3 Thunderbolt and on to the M2 Cyclone....built around the venerable Sportster 1203cc motor, the powerplant quickly evolved from 71 HP to 101 HP in a few short years. These bikes were based on Erik's "Trilogy of Technology" featuring low CG, lower unsprung weight, and a host of other innovations. Erik's vision was to build an AMERICAN sportbike that could compete with the best of the Japanese warriors which were dominating racing. In 2002, the radically different XB series was born featuring closed-loop fuel injection, oil in the swingarm and fuel in the frame. For a little more history, visit www.buell.com.

In short, I own/ride one....among others. I have a '99 M2 Cyclone with full Buell race kit, Mikuni HSR42 flat-slide, Andrews N8 cams and other assorted goodies.

NOTE: The original author of this thread was buellosaurusrex, not Maico as shown!!!

[TFee3]

Hey, I've never seen one of those in my life. Would appreciate your posting pictures!

Thanks!

NEVER MIND! I just went into the link you furnished, and I'm a hard core cruiser guy. They all look more like sportbikes to me, no matter what they company calls them. Did I miss something?

[buellosaurusrex]

Tfee3......you missed nothing. They are, as you said, a sport bike. An AMERICAN sportbike. Even the S3T (touring version) is sportbike based. As a cruiser guy, probably not much there to trip your trigger. But thanks for asking!!!!!!!!!!

[alleydude]

Buells rock! Though not my cup-o-tea, I can appreciate them being based on the Harley Sportster motor, making them very unique. My biggest fastination is with the Blast, a 492cc single based primarily on half a Sportster motor. I would love one to "Blast" around on, and I wish Harley would put one into more of a Sportster chassis configuration.

I gotta' admit I'm kind of facinated just HOW Erick Buell managed to wrangle this deal (using Sporty engines for his ride) without incuring the wrath of the H-D legal department initially?! Think were all too small potatoes enough for H-D to ignore?! Hell NO! When we first moved to the Black Hills in 1990 (and I had started a Leather Shop), by the time our second rally rolled around in 1991, I had 3 dudes from H-D's Legal Department showing up at MY house (talk about a friggin' HONOR! ) making sure we weren't infringing on the Holy Grail of Trademarks (i.e., the H-D Logo)! Sure, the dude did actually work for H-D at one time, but..... ?! Never the less, I'd love having a Buell someday - at least once. But I just think it would be a waste of fine (performance) machinery on me these days. I doubt much I've been much over 70 MPH now in 20 years?! Aw well.....

LRG

[olds_cool63]

I'm not much for Buell's. However, now that they are starting to move away from H-D engines, that can only be a GOOD thing!

The Blast would make a good little commuter if it weren't about the same size as a scooter!

Thanks!

olds_cool63
Custom Cruiser
Custom Sportbike
BOTH metric!

[buellosaurusrex]

Originally Posted by olds_cool63

I'm not much for Buell's. However, now that they are starting to move away from H-D engines, that can only be a GOOD thing!

The Blast would make a good little commuter if it weren't about the same size as a scooter!

Thanks!

olds_cool63
Custom Cruiser
Custom Sportbike
BOTH metric!

That's a curious statement. I, too, am glad Buell has partnered with Rotax to develop the Helicon motor. It's a jump in technology and design, and also a dramatic change from air-cooled technology with it's inherant limitations to water-cooled technology. But you make it sound as if the Air-cooled Sportster-based powerplant was a piece of junk. Far from it! It's an amazingly strong and well-engineered powerplant, and Erik Buell took a decade-old design and increased the HP and performance by over 1/3 in a few short years! In short, he did what Harley engineers either couldn't or wouldn't do. With the XB series bikes he stretched the air-cooled Vee-twin to the edge of the envelope without being unreliable as in the case of many of the S&S component custom built motors you see on choppers/customs, etc. This is using all your resources to their maximum. And this is one of the reasons I believe so strongly in Buell and their product.

[olds_cool63]

Originally Posted by buellosaurusrex

That's a curious statement. I, too, am glad Buell has partnered with Rotax to develop the Helicon motor. It's a jump in technology and design, and also a dramatic change from air-cooled technology with it's inherant limitations to water-cooled technology. But you make it sound as if the Air-cooled Sportster-based powerplant was a piece of junk. Far from it! It's an amazingly strong and well-engineered powerplant, and Erik Buell took a decade-old design and increased the HP and performance by over 1/3 in a few short years! In short, he did what Harley engineers either couldn't or wouldn't do. With the XB series bikes he stretched the air-cooled Vee-twin to the edge of the envelope without being unreliable as in the case of many of the S&S component custom built motors you see on choppers/customs, etc. This is using all your resources to their maximum. And this is one of the reasons I believe so strongly in Buell and their product.

Hey, I agree about the Sportster engine. I've always told HD owners, why replace their engines with an overpriced re-worked engine, when they can just grab the Buell 1203cc? 103 HP from a Sportster engine is not too shabby. I just feel Rotax is gonna be a better deal in the long run, because it's an updated design. And it puts out the HP sport bikers love.

Trust me, I like Sportsters..in fact it's the only HD I've ever considered. I like the 883 for mpg's. If I wanted a 1200, I'd put the Buell engine in in NY minute.


Thanks!

olds_cool63
Custom Sportbike
Custom Cruiser
Both METRIC!

[buellosaurusrex]

OK- thanks for clarifying! I guess I'm a little thin-skinned because people on *other* forums are constantly tearing down the Buells and Sportsters(especially Harley owners), when they are amazingly well-designed machines. Glad to know you like the Sporty's 'cause I do too. (In fact, I've not yet found a bike I truly dislike yet!) Still, the Buell is the only American bike I own out of five so I'm not brand-specific.

[olds_cool63]

Well, I like all bikes, too. Doesn't matter much to me where it's made...Japan, America, Korea....whatever. I like what I like and I ride what I ride. A lot can be done with a Sporty and a lot can be done with a Buell. I see good things happening with Buell in the near future. I never really considered one, but who knows? It's gonna get interesting around here...


Thanks!

olds_cool63
Custom Sportbike
Custom Cruiser
Both METRIC!

[buellosaurusrex]

Go to www.buell.com
Click on the Sportbikes link, then the 1125R video. It's amazing! Make sure you have your speakers turned up!

[olds_cool63]

Pretty cool. I'll have to see it in person next time I'm passing by the Buell dealer. Hey...are ALL Buells short (less than 80 inches long)? Guess I just like my bikes a little bit longer.

Thanks!

olds_cool63
Custom Sportbike
Custom Cruiser
Both METRIC!

[Richard Delcorde]

I have been riding bikes for 47 yrs , and they are always improving in so many ways .The Buell is a Harley , Harley should have built a long time ago if only to bring in younger riders to their brand and keep the $$ in America Erick did just that , Harley should be worshiping the ground he walks on There are bike owners and then there are motorcycle riders .Which one are you ?

[BH121869]

I love Sportsters and the ones that I've had were trouble free and I run the heck out of them. I kept hoping Harley would give us just one model Sporty with the Buell 1203 motor and knock off 100 lbs. I got tired of waiting so I tried one Buell out and then two and had to have one. I like the new designed motor of the two 1125 models but do not like the two radiators sticking out. They still run hot as mine does too.
My XT is far from the fast Jap bikes or Italian bikes or a 1125 but to me it is fast. I have ridden one brand new 06 MV Augusta Brutally ,when I was in Italy and they are super fast, great bikes. Roll the throttle on the XT in 1st and it's coming up way up and quick, second is not as touchy but it does walk the front at full power. I've had it up to120 MPH in 4th and it was still not at the red line and thats with the three bags on. It handles great and the more I ride it the more I like it. It's also the first bike I've had that if you over brake the rear comes up. I usually leave the side bags off and it is a very forgiving bike. I've gone into a couple curves too hot and I just stuck it out and let the tires do their thing. They stick like glue. I Love it.

[sbkal08]

Originally Posted by Richard Delcorde

I have been riding bikes for 47 yrs , and they are always improving in so many ways .The Buell is a Harley , Harley should have built a long time ago if only to bring in younger riders to their brand and keep the $$ in America Erick did just that , Harley should be worshiping the ground he walks on There are bike owners and then there are motorcycle riders .Which one are you ?

I totally disagree that the Buell is a Hardley. It may have a HD based engine, but there's nothing like it in the HD lineup. I ALWAYS tell the curious that no, my bike is not a Hardley, it's a BUELL!

[Zack]

If Buells didn't have H-D roots, I doubt I would have been interested.
Once I rode one, I bought it... a 2003 XB9R.

Now I have an 1125R and although it doesn't have an H-D motor, it's from Erik and "The Moco".
I have met Erik and some of the folks from the factory - workers to big-wigs.
Amazing company/family.

[BH121869]

To say the Buell is not a Harley is partly correct, but to say that, then the V-Max is a Star motorcycle not a Yamaha. Right? Is a V Rod a Harley? I say yes.

Buell needed the financing and a place to sell the bikes. I would not buy one if there were one dealer in each state.

[buellosaurusrex]

The fact of the matter is that without H-D's huge financial coffers and almost unlimited R&D staff and facilities, it is unlikely that the fledgling Buell Motor Company would have been able to remain financially viable throughout the late nineties. H-D was the injection of fresh life and capital that Buell needed.
You can't really say the Buell is a "Harley sport bike" because the engineering, ideas and execution were all Erik & Co, but you can't ignore Harley's contribution to the mix either...any more than you would be able to ignore what is likely to come for the struggling MV Agusta, now that Mother H. is doing the same thing for them!
Harley has the savvy, wisdom and clear thinking to back what they perceive to be a viable (cult-following?) product, while not meddling with what makes it a cult-following in the first place. This is certainluy unusual in today's business world, and a feather in Harley's cap IMHO!

[sbkal08]

Originally Posted by BH121869

To say the Buell is not a Harley is partly correct, but to say that, then the V-Max is a Star motorcycle not a Yamaha. Right? Is a V Rod a Harley? I say yes.

Buell needed the financing and a place to sell the bikes. I would not buy one if there were one dealer in each state.

Your logic is faulty. Star Motorcycles is not a separate company from Yamaha, just a rebadge. In 2005, Yamaha announced the creation of "Star Motorcycles", a new standalone brand name for its cruiser series of motorcycles in the American market. Although a separate brand, Star motorcycles continue to be sold at Yamaha dealerships. In other markets the same bikes will be still sold as Yamahas. The V Rod carries a Hardley badge and is a part of the Hardley inventory. Buell is Buell. Separate and distinct. There is no crossover, correct? Tell me, what other parts do they share except for the engine cases??? Would you say a Benelli is a Moto Guzzi or a Bimota a Ducati? Well, no! Of course not!

[BH121869]

Harley and Buell have many similarities.
I compared new and used Buell prices, at three Harley dealerships, close to my home. I bought a Buell XT new, at one of those Harley dealers. The two sets of keys I received, have the Harley name and emblem on the key chains. The Buell dealer, is the Harley dealer, one in the same. The Buell mechanic is a Harley trained mechanic. I ordered a manual for a Buell, at a Harley shop. I go there for any parts that I may need.
Both are assembled in the US. Both use some foreign parts, my XT has some that say made in Spain, China, & USA. Two models of Buell use a Rotax motor. Harley used Rotax motors on their bikes way before Buell was ever thought of. Some of these new Rotax parts are made in China.
The XT front forks look like they are from Showa, similar to those that were on my 2001 Sportster. The engine looks like it is 50% Sportster. The right lower engine case is different, as is the oil pump, crank pin, push rod covers, and oil filter location. The cylinders have the Harley emblem cast into them. The five speed trans is the same except for gear ratio's. The drive belt and pulleys look like they are the same parts.

The new Harley 1200 XR uses Buell parts, to get it's 90 HP. Yes Buell parts. The new XR is the same 90 HP as the 38 Year old XR made. Sad isn't it? The Sportster 1200 XR motor, has the same Buell parts in it, as my Buell XT. The Harley would be the same identical power, if the air box and exhaust were as large and as tuned as the Buells are. Other than a very few items, the motors are the same.

They share many of the same parts. So is the New 1200 XR a Buell/Harley?

Comparing my 2001 Sporty, to my 2008 Buell, both are 1200 CC. The old Sporty had Buell heads on it, eight years ago, with two plugs per cylinder. Some of it's parts like cams, came from Buell. Buells are different and distinct in some ways. Looks, weight and handling stand out as the first things that I see.

[GI Jack]

Its great to have an American sportsbike manufacturer, and even better to see harley support them on their measures. I don't have the money to put into a sportsbike right now (insurance would KILL me, if I don't do it myself, I'll fully admit, I'm a reckless SOB), but it does seem odd the country which has the top 4 competition super-biker riders doesn't have a single machine to represent them. Especially a country that was once famous for its steel and automotive products. I like the XR1200. People used to race harley's back in the day. I'd love to see another American competitor. Get our automotive pride as a nation back.

I think more cruiser heads gotta be more appreciative of what buell does for the US of A, or even what they do for harley. I mean its not like harley is discontinuing their touring and cruiser bikes for buells and sportsters.

There are a lot of people who like fast bikes and like "buying American". These people need a viable option. Especially service members coming back from overseas. There haven't been so many young vets in America since WW2. Like our forefathers, we want bikes.

What also bugs me, is that back in WW2, harley made bikes for the army, now, the marines are buying Kawasakis for recon bikes. Harley should also make a re-incarnation of the xA as a dual sport for military use only, or even better yet, make it a buell.

They need to start making more parts in the US of A too. I can understand outsourcing SOME parts to either europe or japan(free and first world nations), but fascist CHINA??? hell no.

[sbkal08]

Hardley CAN'T and WON'T make anything that can compete with Japanese engineering. They are more interested in style and image instead of function and achieving any sort of technological superiority. It took Eric Buell to pump up the 1203 engine and it STILL falls flat against Japanese middle weights! "Fast Bikes" and "Buying American" are two phrases that can't coexist together in the same sentence. That would be an oxymoron. As for the Buell mechanic being Hardley trained? I have yet to meet a factory trained Hardley tech that knows anything about the Buell and they ALL refuse to touch my bike! The Hardley techs at the stealership here tell me that the "Sportster" engine is NOT the same as the XB engine. Am I to disagree with a factory trained tech? So, I don't know where you get your info.

[buellosaurusrex]

Originally Posted by sbkal08

Hardley CAN'T and WON'T make anything that can compete with Japanese engineering. They are more interested in style and image instead of function and achieving any sort of technological superiority.

They're not having any problems with sales volume....

It took Eric Buell to pump up the 1203 engine and it STILL falls flat against Japanese middle weights! "Fast Bikes" and "Buying American" are two phrases that can't coexist together in the same sentence.

In what regard? The earlier bikes (tubers) were not meant to compete against Japanese technology. The Buell was originally designed to use an existing HD motor platform (notice I didn't say motor) with a chassis designed for handling and a naked streetfighter look. At the time, I don't believe Erik had his sights set on overtaking the Jap superbikes, with their unlimited R&D teams and funding, but rather, to create an American alternative that was reasonably priced, looked killer, handled great and was built in America. Naturally that vision expanded and changed (hence, the XB platform) and continues to evolve with the 1125 platform. How fast do you need to go, anyway?

That would be an oxymoron. As for the Buell mechanic being Hardley trained? I have yet to meet a factory trained Hardley tech that knows anything about the Buell and they ALL refuse to touch my bike!

Not all Harley techs are Buell trained; not all Harley dealers market and sell Buells. There ARE good Buell techs out there, you need to seek them out.

The Hardley techs at the stealership here tell me that the "Sportster" engine is NOT the same as the XB engine.

It's not. In fact, the Thunderstorm motor used on the late-model tubers is not a Sportster engine, either (91 HP; 81 ft/lb. of torque, with the injected models putting out 101 HP) nor were the earlier Lightning motors used on the M2, S2 and S1 stock Sportster motors either. Cams, heads, and cranks were all different.


Am I to disagree with a factory trained tech? So, I don't know where you get your info.

Just my thoughts...... Peace!

[sbkal08]

I was referring to GI Jacks complaint that servicemen were buying Japanese bikes because there was no viable option. Hardley can't do it! And, they are having problems with sales volume.
http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews...ategoryId=2704
GI Jack wants a fast American bike. In the realm of high performance motorcycles, there is no such thing. Hardley Movingson is not capable of producing such a machine. Hence, an oxymoron.
And BR549 is trying to prove that the Buell engine is the same as the one in his so called "Sportster" despite what I was told as I was being turned away from a Hardley stealership!

[Zack]

A guy came up to my parts counter a couple of weeks ago.
Needed a motor mount for his Dyna... dammed if it wasn't a BUELL part.
Not a lot of crossover, but it's there.

A very large percentage of Buell parts carry H-D part numbers.

The Thunderstorm engine is not a Sportster engine, but it is a descendant of that motor.

The dealer I work for took a bone stock 1125R to Bonneville last year.
It averaged 160mph and change... stock on SALT.

Z

[BH121869]

Originally Posted by sbkal08

Hardley CAN'T and WON'T make anything that can compete with Japanese engineering. They are more interested in style and image instead of function and achieving any sort of technological superiority. It took Eric Buell to pump up the 1203 engine and it STILL falls flat against Japanese middle weights! "Fast Bikes" and "Buying American" are two phrases that can't coexist together in the same sentence. That would be an oxymoron. As for the Buell mechanic being Hardley trained? I have yet to meet a factory trained Hardley tech that knows anything about the Buell and they ALL refuse to touch my bike! The Hardley techs at the stealership here tell me that the "Sportster" engine is NOT the same as the XB engine. Am I to disagree with a factory trained tech? So, I don't know where you get your info.

The Standard Sportster motor today is far from having the Buell spec's. When the Sportster went from the S model to the R model in 2004 I believe, they dropped the Buell performance parts. By the way the spelling is Harley not Hardley. As for stealerships, I have had four Honda's , two Kawasakies one Yamaha etc and believe me they are just as expensive for service and parts as Harley.
Only the new Harley 1200 XR motor is has the Buell parts as several articles have said. That is how it gets 90 HP and a 7000 red line. By the way that 90HP is at the crank not the rear wheel. My XT is rated at 103HP and a 7100 Red Line but actually is 88 HP at the rear tire. All three Harley dealers that sell Buells near me, also service them. One of the Harley shop on Beach Street Daytona does not sell them, but services Buells. They tell me the V-Rod is actually the harder one to work on. From what I've seen so far, the Buell that I have is far easier to work on than my 2001 Sportster. Everything is right there easy to work on. I plan to do all my own work except I'm not good on electrical problems.

[buellosaurusrex]

Originally Posted by sbkal08

GI Jack wants a fast American bike. In the realm of high performance motorcycles, there is no such thing.

I disagree! Are you saying the 1125 and XB12's are not... a) fast, or, b) high performance?
My M2 has a top speed of somewhere in the vicinity of 135 MPH. Is this not "fast"? If not, what constitutes "fast"? It also puts out roughly 100+ horse at the crank...better than 81 ft/lbs of torque....this is not "high performance"?

The newer Buells out handle and outperform all my bikes.....including my Jap inline fours. I would certainly classify them as fast, high-performance American bikes.

[BH121869]

Originally Posted by sbkal08

I was referring to GI Jacks complaint that servicemen were buying Japanese bikes because there was no viable option. Hardley can't do it! And, they are having problems with sales volume.
http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews...ategoryId=2704
!

Sales volumn??? How about Honda Yam and kaw?
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...sales-decline/

http://www.streetinsider.com/Retail+...s/4354083.html

As for fast,Buells are continually gaining ground and winning more races. Give them a few years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQYaY8IYw6A&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpmAqBM5LSc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glzyft9JMQs&NR=1

[BH121869]

Pro Stock Motorcycle - Qualifying Round 1
________________________________________
Friday, September 12, 2008

Psn Rider Vehicle ET Speed
1 Matt Smith NitroFish/Torco Buell 6.952 192.08
2 Chris Rivas Drag Specialties/S&S/G2 Buell 6.968 191.19
3 Eddie Krawiec Screamin' Eagle/Vance & Hines 6.981 192.3
4 Andrew Hines Screamin' Eagle/Vance & Hines 7.007 191.24
5 Steve Johnson Snap-On Tools Suzuki 7.032 192.22
6 Chip Ellis Schumacher Electric Suzuki 7.036 191.19
7 Craig Treble Don Schumacher Racing Suzuki 7.044 191.02
8 Karen Stoffer Geico Suzuki 7.077 190.48
9 Matt Guidera Rocklin Motorsports Buell 7.102 184.42
10 Junior Pippin Stone Mtn & Granite Mtn HD Buell 7.114 184.27
11 Angelle Sampey Rush Racing Products Buell 7.123 187.26
12 Hector Arana Lucas Oil Buell 7.157 189.73
--------- Not Qualified ---------
13 Wes Wells Ray Skillman Perf. Parts Suzuki 7.182 187.44
14 Valerie Thompson Buell 7.22 184.07
15 Joe DeSantis Javelina H-D & Green H-D Suzuki 7.246 186.02
16 Shawn Gann Race Girl/Pure Power Suzuki 7.322 181.11
17 Darin McCurdy G&M Racing Suzuki 7.397 167.41
18 Angie McBride Indicom Electric Buell 9.201 97.14


http://www.motorcycle.com/news/impre...25r-77256.html

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...top-twin-race/

http://www.lowesmotorspeedway.com/dr...cs/535539.html

[Maico Shark]

Not to intrude on any debate or discussion here but I am satisfied that most of you can debate without using denigrating terms for the rides your fellow members have chosen. All things are relative I guess. I once owned a 1947 Vincent Black Shadow. This bike was guaranteed to turn 140 mph in the quarter mile out of the crate in '47. Mine was modified to run on alcohol and I never found out what it would do. Just too scared I guess. Anyway if top speed or acceleration is what turns a guy on that's fine but that gives him no right to disparage my slower machine. to call it a Hondog, or whatever. Just my opinion.

[GI Jack]

Originally Posted by sbkal08

I was referring to GI Jacks complaint that servicemen were buying Japanese bikes because there was no viable option. Hardley can't do it! And, they are having problems with sales volume.
http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews...ategoryId=2704
GI Jack wants a fast American bike. In the realm of high performance motorcycles, there is no such thing. Hardley Movingson is not capable of producing such a machine. Hence, an oxymoron.
And BR549 is trying to prove that the Buell engine is the same as the one in his so called "Sportster" despite what I was told as I was being turned away from a Hardley stealership!

As I write this herein year 2009:

1. Harleys are not more expensive than competing bikes. A base model sportster 883 is the same price as a honda shadow 750.

I read a nice review of the sporty 883 vs the triumph america/bonniville/speedmaster. Similar displacement and horsepower. the harley is actually CHEAPER. an Iron 883, which is customized goes MSRPs for $7899, where the America goes for $8600.

even the prices on the dynas and soft-tails have come down to getting a "real" harley starting around $11k. I don't buy into any mystique hocus pocus, but they look like really nice bikes for a really nice price. Plus, they are American. I like it.

2. the 1125r has a better horsepower to weight ratio than the hayabusa. enough said.