Just passed the MSF rider course

[STIDriver]

When they warn you that the MSF rider course is "physically demanding" they are not joking.

I'm dead tired, that's the only thing I'm sure of at this point.

However, got my permit stamped, my waiver ... gotta stop by the DMV and get my license changed to include the M endorsement.

So ... I am wondering why I'm not happy or excited.

I want to look at bikes ... I want to go to dealers and stare at bikes the whole day but right now the idea to just buy one and ride it off the lot ... well, I'll be honest, it just scares me.

I have about 12 hours total of motorcycling. Never been on a bike before the past 2 days and if there is one thing I learned in these 12 hours of training is that I don't know diddly squat about motorcycling.

I know ZIP. NADA. ZILCH.

I know how to keep it upright, and turn it and do some (bad) u-turns in the box, swerve and brake really quick ... on a 125 cc bike but I'd hardly call that motorcycling.

I'd call that "play with a toy" for a weekend.

I fumbled with the controls, I lost my balance here and there, and while the test itself was almost perfect (one of the u-turns didn't come out right) if there is one thing that these 12 hours taught me is that I should be afraid of the bike.

... there's a little voice in my head that is saying "you are nuts ... you had fun, just pretend it was a video game and forget it ever happened".



Maybe i'm just tired and need to get some sleep ...

[joelh]

I remember how tiring my MSF class was. It was a Friday night, Saturday, Sunday. I was so tired, I don't know how I made it home.

Once you recover, if you can practiced what you learned, you will feel much better about riding.

[Gereke]

Probably tired.

I had a lot of fun during my BRT, but by the end of the second day I just wanted to get the skills test done, get my completion card, and GTFO of there. Didn't relish the fact that I had to swing by the auto parts store on the way home and grab a part to fix my wife's car that day too. Tried to do the repair work on the car, got so pissed at it (even though it was a relatively easy job) that I had to walk away and go drink beer instead. Revisited the repair work the next day and got it done.

That totally pointless bit of information out of the way....

I can understand, being a newly endorsed individual with jack-squat for experience myself, that thinking about going out into the chaos of our public roads is intimidating. I'll probably feel the same way I did the first time I went out into traffic in a Freightliner Colombia, pulling a 53 foot dry van. Only truck driving "experience" I had at the time was the 3 days of driving in a gravel lot doing backing practice. The feeling was "nervous as hell", and having all the stuff that could go wrong running through my head didn't help (well it did help to a degree, kept me from being a contributing factor to bad stuff). After awhile though, that nervous feeling went away as my confidence level went up. Eventually I couldn't help but have a stupid grin on my face. The difference between that, and motorcycling, was having an instructor that had been driving semi's since the 1950's in the passenger seat. A luxury that won't be there on a motorcycle.

All the same though, it's that fear and respect that keeps a person out of trouble. You have to remember that in the chaos of traffic, there is one constant you can control: Yourself. Keep yourself in check and you've got a big piece of the pie covered.

When I get my bike (hopefully) next month, the first place I'm going to go with it is the local fair grounds, where the BRT I took was held. It's less than a mile from where I live, and I can get there without having to go out in too much traffic, especially early morning on the weekends. It's a nice wide open space, with all the lines from the basic course painted there. Going to put as much time in as I can there practicing the same drills we did during the basic.

Once I feel I'm familiar enough with the bike to operate the controls out without thinking about it, it'll be time to go play in traffic- one step at a time. I'll start off in the quiet residential area where I live, and slowly work my way up to the rabbit-warren of downtown. Then it'll be trips up the windy mountain roads, and then trips on the interstate.

All steps to take to increase confidence and ease some of the fear of being exposed and vulnerable. For me it'll be one extreme to another. From 18 wheels (and a dozen roses *ba da dum- crash*) to two wheels.

I guess the basic point I'm trying to make is don't worry about the fear, it's natural, and you'll get over it with time and practice. Just don't get over it too much, because fear keeps a person alive. Lose enough to have fun on the road.

[stantony1]

I think I felt the same way when I finally finished the MSF BRC course. I was exhausted.

I have a few suggestions that might make you feel better going forward.

1: MSF teaches you those survival basics that you just need to keep practicing. And DO start off with the friction zone. Each bike is completely unique for friction zone. Do each exercise 3-5 times in PLP. It takes about an hour if you zip along. It will definitely teach you how your bike behaves and reinforces the habit of each skill.

2: For the very first time, ride your bicycle from your house to the lot if possible. Gets you in the SCANNING traffic for your life mode and SCANNING ROAD surface hazards. Afterwards, when you drive your car, just drive as if you were on a bike and start noting everything you see. Do this ALL the time. It can save your life even in a car.

3: Get your motorcycle and get your gear on and ride as much as you can on empty roads and light traffic to get used to your bike and pick up scanning skills.

4: PLP and Street Riding go hand in hand. You'll get a feel/scanning skill for the traffic situations and PLP will teach/reinforce how to react properly to threats/situations you encounter.

5: For me: I ride with no fear of my bike/skills. I ride with absolute fear of the other drivers. They both balance out to be = fun on a motorcycle as bizarre as it may sound.

[STIDriver]

Thank you all for your replies. Exhaustion had a lot to do with it.

I run 10 miles on Saturdays and Sundays and 6 miles at night almost every workday plus I do weights ... so I thought I had a lot of stamina.

The MSF course tired me out like no 10 miles run ever did before.

It was mental exhausting and no amounts of Gatorade can make the constant sweating for 5 hours straight ... easy.

Lesson learned: riding for 5 hours straight ... even if it's stop and go (probably, ESPECIALLY if it's stop and go) can take a lot out of you.

That being said:

Originally Posted by stantony1

I think I felt the same way when I finally finished the MSF BRC course. I was exhausted.

I have a few suggestions that might make you feel better going forward.

1: MSF teaches you those survival basics that you just need to keep practicing. And DO start off with the friction zone. Each bike is completely unique for friction zone. Do each exercise 3-5 times in PLP. It takes about an hour if you zip along. It will definitely teach you how your bike behaves and reinforces the habit of each skill. Will do as soon as I have a bike.

2: For the very first time, ride your bicycle from your house to the lot if possible. Gets you in the SCANNING traffic for your life mode and SCANNING ROAD surface hazards. Afterwards, when you drive your car, just drive as if you were on a bike and start noting everything you see. Do this ALL the time. It can save your life even in a car. Knock on wood 55 times: I already do that and have been doing that for the past 20+ years of driving in Europe and here in the US. Again, knock on wood, never been in an accident with my car, caused by me or others because even with my car I always drive as if EVERYONE IS OUT TO KILL ME. Every time I pass a car on the highway I ASSUME they will change lane at the last second and cut me off and drive accordingly, leaving myself enough time and space to react. And I always assume that I can make a mistake and leave myself enough margin for that as well. Yes, I'm naturally paranoid that way.

3: Get your motorcycle and get your gear on and ride as much as you can on empty roads and light traffic to get used to your bike and pick up scanning skills. Will do as soon as I have a bike.

4: PLP and Street Riding go hand in hand. You'll get a feel/scanning skill for the traffic situations and PLP will teach/reinforce how to react properly to threats/situations you encounter. Will do as soon as I have a bike.

5: For me: I ride with no fear of my bike/skills. I ride with absolute fear of the other drivers. They both balance out to be = fun on a motorcycle as bizarre as it may sound. It's the spirit of the challenge I bet: you are doing something that few other people have the guts to do ... and you are doing it staying in one piece. It's a challenge and succeeding (riding AND staying alive and in one piece) gives you an incredible sense of satisfaction. Back in the day when I used to fly my little trusty Cessna ... I felt the same way at the end of each flight. I am seeing a lot of parallels between flying planes and riding bikes: both can kill you very easily if you don't pay attention but both allow you to have a type of fun that few other people can even just dream of.

Thank you for your suggestions by the way.

[joelh]

Also, pick up the book "Proficient Motorcycling". It cover a lot of the same ground, but more in depth. There is no way anyone can remember everything they are told in the class. I am just finishing up the book and and trying to apply some of what I am reading on every ride.

[0949er]

when I first bought my bike I spent the first two days driving around my complex. I tell you what, the first time I saw a car I smashed the front brake (a big no-no) just because I was not use to seeing cars on the bike yet. This pulled me out of my turn, and I had to really struggle to get the bike back turning to avoid the car.

Once you commit to a turn, you cant worry about a car on the outside of the turn. You must concentrate on looking through the turn or you will get into trouble. You know where you are going, and can control that.

Anways, after the apartment complex got boring I moved out to a side road. This had very mild traffic, but traffic non-the-less. To get onto the side road, you had to make a left out of a intersection at a shopping centre, so it was fairly congested at times, making first trips out kinda nerve-racking.

Here I practised for 2 weeks. After the end of week one I was wanting to get out into more roads, but waited (mainly because I didn't have any tags on the bike)

After those two weeks, I was ready to make a ride to the inspection station (basically a ~10 mile trip down a 55 mph highway). After the station I went to the DMV and got my plates. The rest is history!

P.S. I am about 3 weeks into riding almost every day and am still getting use to the clutch and friction zone. Also, everybody says to pretend like everybody is trying to kill you.... well.... THEY ARE!!!! This is no under-statement. I had a guy literally make his car jump to PRETEND that he was gonna pull out in front of me at a intersection. Mother F*$&#% smiled at me.

[mikevillena]

Originally Posted by STIDriver

When they warn you that the MSF rider course is "physically demanding" they are not joking.

I'm dead tired, that's the only thing I'm sure of at this point.

However, got my permit stamped, my waiver ... gotta stop by the DMV and get my license changed to include the M endorsement.

So ... I am wondering why I'm not happy or excited.

I want to look at bikes ... I want to go to dealers and stare at bikes the whole day but right now the idea to just buy one and ride it off the lot ... well, I'll be honest, it just scares me.

I have about 12 hours total of motorcycling. Never been on a bike before the past 2 days and if there is one thing I learned in these 12 hours of training is that I don't know diddly squat about motorcycling.

I know ZIP. NADA. ZILCH.

I know how to keep it upright, and turn it and do some (bad) u-turns in the box, swerve and brake really quick ... on a 125 cc bike but I'd hardly call that motorcycling.

I'd call that "play with a toy" for a weekend.

I fumbled with the controls, I lost my balance here and there, and while the test itself was almost perfect (one of the u-turns didn't come out right) if there is one thing that these 12 hours taught me is that I should be afraid of the bike.

... there's a little voice in my head that is saying "you are nuts ... you had fun, just pretend it was a video game and forget it ever happened".



Maybe i'm just tired and need to get some sleep ...

Well, at least you got through it. Congrats! But realize that the MSF course is just the tip of the iceberg. There is so much more to learn and seat time and experience will teach you.
BTW, it's interesting that you consider a 125cc a "TOY" motorcycle..... I ride a 125cc bike myself. Just so you know, my little Aprilia RS125 is more than capable of out-cornering bigger 600cc and liter bikes on the street and on the track. Almost all of the past and present MotoGP champions started their racing careers on pretty much the same bike. As a matter of fact, they have a series in the UK called the Aprilia Superteens.

[STIDriver]

Originally Posted by mikevillena

BTW, it's interesting that you consider a 125cc a "TOY" motorcycle..... I ride a 125cc bike myself. ...

In all fairness the 125s we were using in class were toys.

At some point I "gunned" it (well not really, I just kicked it a bit) in second gear and the bike wheezed its way up to a whopping 18 mph ...

no wheelies with these puppies (not that I wanted to do one anyway).

I know that 125cc is not a toy.

I come from Italy, I grew up there and in the 80s, in high school the kids that had 125s where the COOL KIDS and the kids that had 250s where the AWESOME kids.

From time to time a college jock would show up with a 500cc and everyone would go ape$hit and everyone would crowd the lucky dude (especially girls ... /sigh), as he was a celebrity.

A 250 Vespa was considered "DA BEAST" ...

An Aprilia 125 enduro was probably one of the most sought after bikes in my area (used to live in Rome but the area of Rome I was living in had spotty areas of dirt and gravel ... so plenty of kids would just go "jumping" on dirt mounds).

Needless to say I'd be just relegated to be on foot since my parents had issued a Fatwa on me that I was forever and ever forbidden to ride a bike.

No, 125s are far from toys.

But my whopping 10-12 hours of motorcycling experience are on 125s that could barely move.

perhaps it's because I'm a bit on the heavy side (210 pounds, 6-1).

A 125 with a high school kid or a lighter person might be ok.

Me on a 125? especially the beat up junker I was sitting on? ... not so much.

Yeah ... that was a toy.

Ah ... that was a trip down memory lane ...

[VMAXinFL]

I got my endorsement in May 2011. I've had 11 bikes since. DO NOT GO TO THE DEALER. They will take advantage of your inexperience and "sell" you on a bike they want to dump, most likely a 2011 model that more knowledgeable people have passed on. DO YOUR RESEARCH, BEFORE YOU BUY. Too many write "I bought this bike, did I do OK?" on the forums. Sit on the bike means nothing. Starting it, means nothing. Riding in the parking lot at 5 mph, means nothing. You still do not know if the bike is for YOU. Get the ergonomics worked out. I am 6' 2" tall, not many bikes fit me, and I don't want a Goldwing or heavy bike.
How will you ride, weekends, daily commute, seasonally, long cruises over 200 miles?
You have MANY things to consider before you buy. Personally, I need two bikes to fulfill my needs. I read and ride daily, test drive everything I can put my hands on. Every bike I bought the owner was nervous I was gone 15 - 20 minutes, because that's knowing if it's going to be something I want or not, not a zip around the block. http://cycle-ergo.com/

[STIDriver]

Originally Posted by VMAXinFL

I got my endorsement in May 2011. I've had 11 bikes since. DO NOT GO TO THE DEALER. They will take advantage of your inexperience and "sell" you on a bike they want to dump, most likely a 2011 model that more knowledgeable people have passed on. DO YOUR RESEARCH, BEFORE YOU BUY. Too many write "I bought this bike, did I do OK?" on the forums. Sit on the bike means nothing. Starting it, means nothing. Riding in the parking lot at 5 mph, means nothing. You still do not know if the bike is for YOU. Get the ergonomics worked out. I am 6' 2" tall, not many bikes fit me, and I don't want a Goldwing or heavy bike.
How will you ride, weekends, daily commute, seasonally, long cruises over 200 miles?
You have MANY things to consider before you buy. Personally, I need two bikes to fulfill my needs. I read and ride daily, test drive everything I can put my hands on. Every bike I bought the owner was nervous I was gone 15 - 20 minutes, because that's knowing if it's going to be something I want or not, not a zip around the block.

Forgive my confusion and silly question (I know diddly squat about bikes and I am still even trying to figure out the logistics involved into buying one):

Are you suggesting that I should take a bike for a test drive? is that even allowed for bikes?

In a car the sales guy/lady is with you in the car while you test drive. I don't think the same is possible for bikes, is it?

If they let you off on your own ... how do they make sure you are not just going to drive it around the corner, right over a flatbed truck and take off with it?

[VMAXinFL]

Before you test drive from a dealer, they usually have your credit already checked, copy of your DL, all part of the "steps of the selling process" to walk you into the signing office, before you ever know the model name of the bike you're about to buy. Hang out at a dealership one day for grins, and watch them in action work over other people. You'll learn a lot that way. Tell them you're waiting for a friend, and they'll leave you alone. Leave your money, and wallet in your car, avoid them from slipping you into a bike purchase THAT DAY. The scruples change from dealer to dealer, but generally, they're experts at getting to you to buy something you don't even know is right for you. One sign of this is the amount of trade in's on the showroom floor that have 300-500 miles on them. Those are people that returned and traded in to get what they should have bought in the first place.

Absolutely you have a right to drive a bike before you buy it. Many dealers offer rentals, and that's a very good way to get acquainted with a particular bike before you have buyers remorse.

I generally avoid the off the lot depreciation, and buy used. You show the seller (craigslist) your endorsed, if it's not a high powered bike, they'll usually let you ride it first, and you should only buy a used bike you've had a mechanic thoroughly check over for you. If he resists, walk away.

So, instead of dealers and sellers to teach you anything, see a mechanic instead. Talk to him for awhile during his lunch break or at closing time when he's more available to earn your business. I did this over several days and got all kinds of great advice. I always take a bike to him first before buying.
He's saved me lots of money avoiding bikes I thought would have been worthwhile.
Stop telling people you don't know squat. Silence is a good buying style. Let them assume you're an expert instead, so you have some respect when negotiating begins. Use kbb.com for comparison values and avoid private party pricing near dealer prices. They're not servicing the bike, giving you any warranty, trade in value is more appropriate for used bikes.

[roadhawk]

Congratulations on finishing your course. I'm sure with a bit of sleep you'll start really enjoying things again and start learning even more about what you learned in classes ("you know, I could have done "this" or "that" to make that part of it smoother, etc").

One great way to practice on your new bike is to find some nice smooth dirt/grass and practice going just as slow as you can. You'll learn all about your clutch, throttle, off idle torque amount, balance, brake control, etc and if you do mess up, you just put your feet down and/or sit down with a leg out. Worst case you fall over going 1 mph. Not good, but not catastrophic either.

[mikevillena]

Originally Posted by STIDriver

In all fairness the 125s we were using in class were toys.

At some point I "gunned" it (well not really, I just kicked it a bit) in second gear and the bike wheezed its way up to a whopping 18 mph ...

no wheelies with these puppies (not that I wanted to do one anyway).

I know that 125cc is not a toy.

I come from Italy, I grew up there and in the 80s, in high school the kids that had 125s where the COOL KIDS and the kids that had 250s where the AWESOME kids.

From time to time a college jock would show up with a 500cc and everyone would go ape$hit and everyone would crowd the lucky dude (especially girls ... /sigh), as he was a celebrity.

A 250 Vespa was considered "DA BEAST" ...

An Aprilia 125 enduro was probably one of the most sought after bikes in my area (used to live in Rome but the area of Rome I was living in had spotty areas of dirt and gravel ... so plenty of kids would just go "jumping" on dirt mounds).

Needless to say I'd be just relegated to be on foot since my parents had issued a Fatwa on me that I was forever and ever forbidden to ride a bike.

No, 125s are far from toys.

But my whopping 10-12 hours of motorcycling experience are on 125s that could barely move.

perhaps it's because I'm a bit on the heavy side (210 pounds, 6-1).

A 125 with a high school kid or a lighter person might be ok.

Me on a 125? especially the beat up junker I was sitting on? ... not so much.

Yeah ... that was a toy.

Ah ... that was a trip down memory lane ...

A rider can easily die or get injured on a 125cc or a 1200cc if they do something stupid. Just because it's a 125cc doesn't mean that you can treat it as a toy either. It is still a motorcycle and still requires the proper amount of focus and attention. Seasoned and experienced riders will never take anything for granted. Same thing with a scooter. Just my two cents. Good luck and stay safe. I'm outta here. Ciao.

[STIDriver]

Originally Posted by mikevillena

A rider can easily die or get injured on a 125cc or a 1200cc if they do something stupid. Just because it's a 125cc doesn't mean that you can treat it as a toy either. It is still a motorcycle and still requires the proper amount of focus and attention. Seasoned and experienced riders will never take anything for granted. Same thing with a scooter. Just my two cents. Good luck and stay safe. I'm outta here. Ciao.

In truth ... that's true for a bicycle as well. People riding on two wheels are simply taking more risk. That's a fact no matter if the rear wheel is attached to an engine or your feet.

I didn't mean to understate the fact that you need to pay attention riding a 125cc ... didn't mean any offense when I said that the 125 is a toy ... i meant it jokingly.

[STIDriver]

Originally Posted by VMAXinFL

Before you test drive from a dealer, they usually have your credit already checked, copy of your DL, all part of the "steps of the selling process" to walk you into the signing office, before you ever know the model name of the bike you're about to buy. Hang out at a dealership one day for grins, and watch them in action work over other people. You'll learn a lot that way. Tell them you're waiting for a friend, and they'll leave you alone. Leave your money, and wallet in your car, avoid them from slipping you into a bike purchase THAT DAY. The scruples change from dealer to dealer, but generally, they're experts at getting to you to buy something you don't even know is right for you. One sign of this is the amount of trade in's on the showroom floor that have 300-500 miles on them. Those are people that returned and traded in to get what they should have bought in the first place.

Absolutely you have a right to drive a bike before you buy it. Many dealers offer rentals, and that's a very good way to get acquainted with a particular bike before you have buyers remorse.

I generally avoid the off the lot depreciation, and buy used. You show the seller (craigslist) your endorsed, if it's not a high powered bike, they'll usually let you ride it first, and you should only buy a used bike you've had a mechanic thoroughly check over for you. If he resists, walk away.

So, instead of dealers and sellers to teach you anything, see a mechanic instead. Talk to him for awhile during his lunch break or at closing time when he's more available to earn your business. I did this over several days and got all kinds of great advice. I always take a bike to him first before buying.
He's saved me lots of money avoiding bikes I thought would have been worthwhile.
Stop telling people you don't know squat. Silence is a good buying style. Let them assume you're an expert instead, so you have some respect when negotiating begins. Use kbb.com for comparison values and avoid private party pricing near dealer prices. They're not servicing the bike, giving you any warranty, trade in value is more appropriate for used bikes.

Good advice.

Thank you.

I think at this point it's just a question of me winning my fear, ignoring the pressure of the sales guys trying to seduce me with something I'm not comfortable with ... the more I think about the guy that wanted to sell me a GSX 650F, the more i think he was clearly trying to make a sale and totally understating the fact that it's probably way too much bike given my level of experience.

At this point I'm fairly convinced that either a Ninja 250 or a Ninja EX500 will do the trick.

I heard good things about both bikes, the 250 seems a bit small for me but comfortable.

Tomorrow i might get to try a used EX500 ... we'll see how that goes.

I am going to ignore anyone that tells me that "I will outgrow the bike in 2 months".

yeah? maybe I will. So?

It's not like I need to break the sound barrier on the turnpike. i just wanna put-put on country roads without a cage around me ... and come back home with my limbs still attached. That's the height of my aspirations right now.

I'm pretty sure I shouldn't care that others think I'm being too "careful".

[VMAXinFL]

Excellent. You're on the right track. Get a bike that you're not compromising on comfort at all in the first few minutes.
The 500 is certainly a good bike, just take your time and sit on everything, read all you can, and ride it. A 750 might fit you best, and if you keep the rpm down, it's certainly not going to move at rocket speed, you control the throttle. You don't have to peak the HP to gain the benefits of a bike that fits you best.
How used is used? Make sure the leg position is also relaxed for your knees. You shift and stop with those feet, so it shouldn't require you to move your position to do that routinely. Look at the brake pads, you should see the pad, the lever should be FIRM. Ask for work receipts and dates maintenance was last done. He needs to be specific. Fluid flushes, oil change interval, check the slack in the chain, wear on the sprocket, and make sure the engine/pipes are cold so YOU cold start it. Remove the ignition key and insert it again, they wear out fast on some bikes, he might forget to tell you he's living with problems by being used to masking them instead of fixing them.
The carb job can be $200-250 off the bat and it's the most common item you have to do to a used bike. Look closely at the rim, sometimes bent rims are not obvious, so take your time, make a checklist. Don't let him distract you, tune him out at some point and think clearly what you're buying,and why he's selling it. Remove the seat, side covers, check the battery, wiring, look for sloppy home fixes, repairs, repaint, aftermarket items, signs of a wreck, zip ties holding on the fairing, has it been laid down?
The forks and handle bars get replaced after a crash often too.
deduct for all repairs you'll have to do from the book value on the bike.
Sellers sometimes tell you up front, most don't. Don't hesitate to bring a mechanic or take the bike to one before you buy! Estimates are free, and can cost more than you'd realize the first time around.
Make sure the cosmetic age matches the mileage. You can replace a speedometer for $200 and the mileage may be a lot less on it than what is really on the bike.
Hold the throttle over idle, move it up slowly, and throttle up and down repeatedly and make sure it's smooth, doesn't stumble, comes back down to idle quickly, NO smoke out the exhaust, and you're going to be fine.


The fun soon begins! Enjoy.