lane position

[sanford]

Have a question on lane positions, if were riding a stretch of road where there are no cross intersections on our right ie railroad tracks, is it safe just to ride near the fog line? I would think ok, not sure if reason not too?
Unless some one jumps my lane or something... seems more comfortable then being on the left of center line only a few feet from whizzing cars..

I also could see the far right could invite some one to pass maybe in both directions..riding is one BIG chess game.

[4Raven]

if you "fog line" is referring to the solid line on the outside of the lane, yes it is fine to use your entire lane as you need to! If it is flat you can use the whole lane on hills to the right! I tend to ride to the right and center of the lane, because my highway pegs hang out....don't care to be on the left side...in case someone comes too close and catches a peg!

[CaptCrashIdaho]

When I made this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-r0YsWcJI8

I had a big internal debate about "when is it OK to ride to the right?" I opted not to get into it because for your own vision or visibility being left probably makes most sense.

Two things make being right a little iffy. First you're closer to the flora and fauna--animals and such. Second, roads are crowned and that means crap naturally flows to the outer edges. Other than than, it's yours to call.

[sanford]

Originally Posted by 4Raven

if you "fog line" is referring to the solid line on the outside of the lane, yes it is fine to use your entire lane as you need to! If it is flat you can use the whole lane on hills to the right! I tend to ride to the right and center of the lane, because my highway pegs hang out....don't care to be on the left side...in case someone comes too close and catches a peg!

yes that's what meant, thanks

Two things make being right a little iffy. First you're closer to the flora and fauna--animals and such. Second, roads are crowned and that means crap naturally flows to the outer edges. Other than than, it's yours to call.

ok, thanks

[Kiwi Steve]

here in New Zealand riders are advised to "own your space". This means to position your bike so other motorists (cagers) realise that your bike takes up the complete space of a car. This prevents the bike rider being monstered by a car that thinks its OK to squeeze through as they think the bike is leaving room for them to go past.

So, I'd be riding (and here I'm converting so that I'm describing as if I'm riding on the right hand side of the road) a couple of feet inside the centre line, in the left hand wheel track of the lane. You can always ease over in the lane (like I do when a large truck comes passed the other way, to minimise the air pressure from the truck). This way I "own" my space, and I've got plenty of room to move around the lane if needed.

[chet8625]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Steve

here in New Zealand riders are advised to "own your space". This means to position your bike so other motorists (cagers) realise that your bike takes up the complete space of a car. This prevents the bike rider being monstered by a car that thinks its OK to squeeze through as they think the bike is leaving room for them to go past.

So, I'd be riding (and here I'm converting so that I'm describing as if I'm riding on the right hand side of the road) a couple of feet inside the centre line, in the left hand wheel track of the lane. You can always ease over in the lane (like I do when a large truck comes passed the other way, to minimise the air pressure from the truck). This way I "own" my space, and I've got plenty of room to move around the lane if needed.

^ This. You have to "own" the lane. Otherwise cars maya assume you are giving up the right of way (allowing them to pass) or they may feel it's an opportiunity to pass you anyway.

I switch between just right and just left of the center line.

[markk53]

I think you answered your own question as you asked... good thinking and observations. Just what is needed when riding. If you think there may be reason to try to avoid positioning yourself in a certain part of your lane then don't postion yourself there.

Riding AND driving is a constant chess match. You have to be playing ahead of where you are all the time so as to not have those "close calls" and "almosts" we are constantly reading about. MSF and others have it right Scan, Interpret, Predict, Decide, Execute. This has to become almost instantaneous application and does as you ride and think more and more. It's like anything you learn. In the beginning it takes more of your attention to think what to do, but experience makes it almost instantaneous reaction based on what you've learned.

Keep observing and thinking, SIPDE. Your actions will become quicker, requiring less of your attention and will serve you well.

[OldGuy]

In my neck of the woods it's suicide to hug the center line. Cagers
regularly cross the line, especially on curves. I stay away from both
far left and far right lane positions.

[WintrSol]

When I started riding, cars regularly oiled the center of the lane with the crankcase vent, so it became habit to ride on the inside of one of the wheel tracks; which one depended on traffic in the adjacent lane, growth at the road's edge, etc.

[distantThunder]

just my $0.02 here.

first, you got it exactly right when you said that riding is a chess game. it is. sometimes the chess game can be relaxed - like when you are riding isolated roads and there is no other traffic (and the weather is good). but most of the time the chess game will always be there. so you just learn to play it, and stay mentally relaxed while it's going on.

as far as riding close to the edge of the road. i rarely do that. someone pointed out that there can be animals or debris over there - that's true. but in addition, I demand that the lane belongs to me. i don't want some car sneaking up behind me and thinking they can just edge past me on the bike - because most of the lane is open (to my left). some cages are like that. they seem to think that if you're on a motorcycle ... then it's just like you're riding a skateboard or something. they believe they can just edge thru open space. it's a very dangerous practice if they are lane-sharing with you, and most of them are too clueless about how much room their vehicle takes anyway.

for this reason - I ride like I OWN the piece of road where I'm at. If they want to pass me, they need to give me the same respect (or more) that they would give any other vehicle.

and generally my lane position is chosen so that I'm usually riding on the best asphalt surface, visibility is maximized, and I have maximum opportunity to make a swerve or a turn if there's a crisis ahead.

good luck!
dT

[sanford]

Thanks for input..to be honest does seem to boil down to what the Captain said in his vidio...well at least I'm not totally green and other readers may learn from my constant questions and informitive reply's.

ps.. went to a garage sale today, can you beleive it..the first item I noticed was a very heavy duty leather jacket.
Man I paid for it and rode home a happy camper. It's a bit heavy but that's a good thing, thanked the seller and he replied hope you never have to test it... it defitnitly give's me a little more peace of mind riding..

[ccRider246]

I prefer to ride in the left tire track of the car in front of me. I want to be seen in the side mirror as well as the rear. I don't want cagers thinking they can sneak past me, either. The left tire track gives me more outs (left or right) in case of a drifter.

[Hawkeye]

I always ride near the center line and just pay attention to oncoming cars. I want more space and time to react so riding near the shoulder/edge of the road seems very unsafe to me as it only give you one direction to swerve.

[sanford]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

I always ride near the center line and just pay attention to oncoming cars. I want more space and time to react so riding near the shoulder/edge of the road seems very unsafe to me as it only give you one direction to swerve.

I'm sure your a good rider, but I always read that you are putting yourself in blind spots riding the center? could make it dangerous for you if someone does not see you in rear mirror and changes lane's? plus the center may accumalate oil especially at intersections..but I'm sure you read this before.

[Hawkeye]

No, I ride near the center line, not the center of the lane. Generally I try to stay in the wear patterns on the road made by tires cause it is least likely to have debris in it.

I am very cautious about being in blind spots. I change the side of the lane I ride in depending on traffic, outs and conditions.

[sanford]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

No, I ride near the center line, not the center of the lane. Generally I try to stay in the wear patterns on the road made by tires cause it is least likely to have debris in it.

I am very cautious about being in blind spots. I change the side of the lane I ride in depending on traffic, outs and conditions.

ok, that sounds better Somedays I wonder if all this hassle is worth it, but heck people get hurt with cars also..

[bcompton]

What about when riding on city streets with oncoming traffic that may turn across your lane in front of you (one of my worst fears)? Seems that riding close to the center line makes you more visible to oncoming traffic, but also places you closer to them which increases risk of a head-on collision if they accidentally swerve across the center line.

So, what's worse, someone turning in front of you because you were "hidden" behind the car in front of you, or the risk of someone swerving into your path?

[EddieMac]

Here is another reason to favor the interior third of your lane. 'Round these parts we have lots of two-lane canopy roads with brush and trees only a few feet from the shoulder. People trying to enter the road from a driveway may have difficulty seeing a bike which favors the shoulder third of the lane because branches and brush may be obstructing their view. This can be minimized by favoring the third of the lane closest to the center line.

[Ramsfan87]

I was just about to ask if sanford was back! Thank god he's not and someone just revived an old thread.

[Dodsfall]

Originally Posted by bcompton

So, what's worse, someone turning in front of you because you were "hidden" behind the car in front of you, or the risk of someone swerving into your path?

Both can have bad consequences. It's much more likely for a driver to turn left in front of a rider than to swerve across the dividing line, so riding where you can be seen the best gives the best odds of avoiding an accident.

[Kegger]

For the most part, lane position is constantly changing and dynamic. Ride wherever you have to to give you the most space and visibility.

Someone mentioned SIPDE earlier, and the MSF has pretty much adopted SEE

Less steps, less thinking:

Search,Evaluate,Execute

Something that will help keep you alive on public roads: Always assume that every moving object you see is TRYING to hit you. Search-scan ahead for potential hazards that are trying to hit you. Evaluate-do the what if scenarios in your head and have a plan for each of them (Example: "what if" car slams on brakes -swerve to left to avoid because there is an out there, allow more space so I can stop as well, swerve to right because I cant swerve left because that curb is there, etc) Execute - be prepared for the evasive action, or adjust your space to provide an out, better visibility or more time to perform an action.........

[casilver]

Like Kegger said... lane position is not a fixed thing... it evolves, changes as the situations ask for.

If in traffic, I always pick the position where cars can see me easiest. Sometimes I will even swerve a little (to attract attention) if I see a car waiting to make a left turn in the coming intersection. If I'm behind a car in that situation, I slow down, move to the left (easier for them to see me) and get further back away from the car ahead of me so the left turn car can see me better, and I have more time to react. If there is also another car in the right lane next to me, I will position myself to cross the intersection with that car, using them as a more visible object that the left hand turn driver can see more easily.

On open highways, with no traffic, I just pick the best (less mangled) part of the lane. On blind curves, I tend to stay away from the center line, in case an oncoming car or bike is going wide in that curve. Also, on open highways, if no one is ahead of me, and there is a line of cars on the opposite side, I tend to stay to the center or right (closer to the fog line) so that oncoming cars wanting to pass can see me better and I am already on the far side if they do try and pass another car, but don't go so far to the right where you're inviting them to pass into your lane while you're there.

It just really depends on the situation considering debris, your line of sight, trees, plants, people, etc, the entire lane is yours, use it wisely to your advantage.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

In the spirit of simplicity:

Don't hide in traffic.

Ponder a moment--which is better, to be 2, 3 feet closer to oncoming traffic or you unable to see them or they you?

[bcompton]

Originally Posted by Kegger

Always assume that every moving object you see is TRYING to hit you.

Wow - that may be the best safety advice I've ever heard - seriously! This should be a really big topic in the MSF Beginner's course. Maybe make it the MSF mantra or something - can't pass the class until you say it out loud 5 times!

[markk53]

Originally Posted by Kegger

For the most part, lane position is constantly changing and dynamic. Ride wherever you have to to give you the most space and visibility.

Someone mentioned SIPDE earlier, and the MSF has pretty much adopted SEE

Less steps, less thinking:

Search,Evaluate,Execute

Something that will help keep you alive on public roads: Always assume that every moving object you see is TRYING to hit you. Search-scan ahead for potential hazards that are trying to hit you. Evaluate-do the what if scenarios in your head and have a plan for each of them (Example: "what if" car slams on brakes -swerve to left to avoid because there is an out there, allow more space so I can stop as well, swerve to right because I cant swerve left because that curb is there, etc) Execute - be prepared for the evasive action, or adjust your space to provide an out, better visibility or more time to perform an action.........

I don't know if I mentioned SIPDE, but the key point is if you have to think when doing it - it's too late!

This whole awareness thing is NOT about acronyms, it's about a learned behavior. A driver (rider included) has to be scanning and thinking at all times, not about an acronym, but about what can happen.

I had exactly that the other day driving home. The vehicle a ways ahead of me by maybe 50 yards was slowing and turning in a drive. There was another car stopped in the other lane to pull in that same drive. I wasn't really planning on slowing much since it was my right-of-way and I wouldn't come near the car turning in... Then the idiot in the other vehicle turned left immediately in front of me. I had to anchor it down, but was prepared enough to do so without lock up or impact - motorcycle think there - but it was a definite violation of my right-of-way. Lucky for her I wasn't in my truck with lesser braking and lesser desire on my part to avoid an impact (reaction was quick enough to have that brief thought). To finish, no SEE or SIPDE, just instant reaction to what I apparently automatically consider possible brought about by the original practice to the point of ingraining it in my responses.

Just saying the key is conciously practice and it will become instinctive in nature. The acronyms aren't really of value in a situation, it is before a situation in the learning process.



I am also on board with the "we are a target, ride like everyone is out to get you!" When in sales talking with new riders I emphasized that point. It pays off in driving other vehicles too. There is some jerk out there not paying attention and they will screw up! Sometimes I've been the jerk. If we all are on the alert, we will cover for each others' mistakes. That and avoid the habitual jerk that thinks they own the roadways or can't put down the cell phone.

[Dodsfall]

Originally Posted by markk53

I wasn't really planning on slowing much since it was my right-of-way and I wouldn't come near the car turning in... Then the idiot in the other vehicle turned left immediately in front of me.

Seeing that the car was waiting to turn left is a good reason to slow down in advance and prepare for them to do something stupid. They were likely focused solidly on the car turning and didn't even see the motorcycle coming toward them. No one can foresee every bad scenario, but preparing for possible ones can save your bacon. Having the right of way is no guarantee that other vehicles will respect it by any means.

[RonK]

Originally Posted by casilver

Like Kegger said... lane position is not a fixed thing... it evolves, changes as the situations ask for.

If in traffic, I always pick the position where cars can see me easiest. Sometimes I will even swerve a little (to attract attention) if I see a car waiting to make a left turn in the coming intersection. If I'm behind a car in that situation, I slow down, move to the left (easier for them to see me) and get further back away from the car ahead of me so the left turn car can see me better, and I have more time to react. If there is also another car in the right lane next to me, I will position myself to cross the intersection with that car, using them as a more visible object that the left hand turn driver can see more easily.

On open highways, with no traffic, I just pick the best (less mangled) part of the lane. On blind curves, I tend to stay away from the center line, in case an oncoming car or bike is going wide in that curve. Also, on open highways, if no one is ahead of me, and there is a line of cars on the opposite side, I tend to stay to the center or right (closer to the fog line) so that oncoming cars wanting to pass can see me better and I am already on the far side if they do try and pass another car, but don't go so far to the right where you're inviting them to pass into your lane while you're there.

It just really depends on the situation considering debris, your line of sight, trees, plants, people, etc, the entire lane is yours, use it wisely to your advantage.

--

These are prettly much my sentiments. The object being to stay away from cars that may come into my path. The only time I don't do this is when I'm with a group of bikers where we are in a staggered lane formation. Even here, when away from traffic, we usually spread out so we can each have a full lane to maneuver in.

--

[vito]

No matter what lane you choose, be alert. I think riders get in more trouble by not paying close attention to what is happening around them then they do by choosing the wrong part of the lane. Listening to your I-pod or stereo system, glancing down too often at your GPS device, or just letting your mind wander can get you into trouble really fast. For me, visibility to other vehicles is key. Too many riders stay right behind a car so that they are invisible to cars coming in the opposite direction. And if one of those cars plans on turning left, they may feel it is totally safe to do so as soon as the car they see coming toward them has passed. Especially on two lane roads I try to hang back far enough so that oncoming traffic clearly sees me coming. And last year I added a modulator to my headlight, which seems to have made a huge improvement in my being conspicuous. As to the oil or other lubricants in the center of the lane, I think that is usually not a problem, except at places where vehicles stop and sit for awhile, such as at a traffic light or stop sign. But overall, for optimum visibility and optimum conspicuity, I use the left third of the lane the most.

[sectorsight]

I tend to ride the left most part of the lane. Oncoming ages ee my bike sooner and I can see them sooner too in case they are planning to turn. If you ride of the right, a car in an oncoming lane may see your space as an empty place he can turn into. and you guys wouldn't even know it until he's in your lane