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Speedlimits and Accidents

4K views 35 replies 18 participants last post by  67fire 
#1 · (Edited)
I was on a nice ride yesterday, heading south on 77 from Ohio at 6:15 AM to Gauley Bridge in West Virginia with some friends. As we came towards Rockport there was a huge plume of smoke, we continued and drove right into the accident scene. It had just happened and we were all very close to the front of the line of vehicles stopped. Nothing could be done, the pickup was fully engulfed in flames and in both lanes. It was terrible to watch. At first we sat on the road contemplating our plans. I walked up the road a little with my friend and we found a place that we could cross with the bikes through the median to head Northbound, turn around and continue our ride.

Traffic sat at that accident scene for nearly 2 hours. There still has been no update about the accident yet, we passed it coming back late that day and the lane was blocked off remnants of the crash still visible on the highway.

But after my trip to Virginia over spring break and passing through here earlier too...I thought about that posted speed limit of 70 mph. If the posted limit is 60 mph ..people drive 10 over it or better, so if it is posted at 70 mph people will drive 10 mph over it or better doing 80 mph...it just seems to me that 70 is too fast. I was trying to find info on the crash and there are a lot of severe and fatal crashes on 77 in Ohio and West Virginia...

That same day, earlier in Ohio, we went past a State Highway patrol car sitting in the median with it lights on. Immediately after we passed it, it took off southbound at a high rate of speed, we were doing about 60-65 mph...it blew by us. As we came over the hill it was almost out of sight, passing cars on the left and right...had to be doing nearly 120 mph or better! That is insane!

I personally think we need to lower the speed limits back down, I could be wrong...but that is a variable in any accident.
 
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#7 ·
That 120 mph was an LEO obviously enroute to some emergency.

I'd bet those highways out west that are virtually flat and straight would suit the 120 mph design. Straight and flat is straight and flat. I will agree with you to an extent when it comes to curves and such, they are designed for whatever is a posted limit in many cases. I will tell you the problem with recommended limits in Ohio, the orange speed signs that are not limits, are set in quite an arbitrary way and dependent on whomever does the testing. They use a sort of tilt meter and some will post the corner at a rate that has virtually no leaning in the vehicle - too low. I know of corners in eastern Ohio where 18 wheel trucks can safely add 10-20 mph to the recommended speed - that is too low. Then there are areas where the recommended speeds are real darn close to the safe limit. Too arbitrary.

You are right about the mind set though. I haven't had a really close call in a vehicle when I adopted the attitude that if I am late I should have started earlier and I can not make up the time on the road. I also don't get vindictive or take an attitude when someone does something stupid in traffic, we all make mistakes and for those that did it on purpose nothing will make any difference to them - they own the road in their own mind.

What need be done is for more people to be cited for the real violations. Start forcing the issue with tailgating and failure to yield right of way when an officer sees it, accident or not. Write them up, quit warning. If people gave a bit of space then someone could signal decently and be allowed to change lanes safely. When it's bumper to bumper it is difficult to be done safely. I actually avoid the 4 lanes just for that reason. I'd rather take more time on the side roads with a bit easier traffic than run the four lane idiocy that occurs regardless of speed.

If everyone had the attitude I've developed they'd have a lot less stressful drive and would still be able to do 70 mph safely. You want in my lane to get off at the next exit or pass that slower driver? No problem, let me back off a bit...:thumbsup:
 
#5 ·
But after my trip to Virginia over spring break and passing through here earlier too...I thought about that posted speed limit of 70 mph. If the posted limit is 60 mph ..people drive 10 over it or better, so if it is posted at 70 mph people will drive 10 mph over it or better doing 80 mph...it just seems to me that 70 is too fast. I was trying to find info on the crash and there are a lot of severe and fatal crashes on 77 in Ohio and West Virginia...

I personally think we need to lower the speed limits back down, I could be wrong...but that is a variable in any accident.
Well, first off I-77 was designed for 70 mph travel. My father was a project engineer on I-77 from just south of Canton Ohio to maybe Cambridge before becoming a traffic control engineer. He said if the plans were executed to perfection (and without crowning for water flow) in every form and a perfect car was running 70 mph it would run from one end to the other without having hands on the wheel. Of course this is impossible to do, but his point was all the curve banking was designed to run that speed safely, with the only exceptions maybe in some tighter urban sections, but the speed limits are lowered there.

Second off you are wrong. Lowering speed limits has several negative effects, especially on professional drivers. The two main ones, pointed out again by my father, are boredom and fatigue. Doing 55 mph on a lot of the interstate highways is like doing 20 mph in a school zone. Your attention wanders. That's not good with a truck. Then there's the additional time taken to cover the mileage. A ten hour drive becomes a twelve hour drive.

Another factor is where traffic goes based on speed limits. When the limits on highways went to 55 mph more traffic went off onto lesser patrolled secondary highways because they could speed with less risk of being picked up. The 4 lane deaths dropped, but the two lane picked up. When the speed limit went back up the two lane death rate dropped and the 4 lane rose a bit again. More people travel where they can move the fastest.

And, contrary to your thoughts, interstate travel is the safest of all the roadways. Most of the crashes you are considering are going to be in urban areas like Cleveland, Akron/Canton and the like. I lived in New Philadelphia, right beside I-77 for over 50 years. Major crashes on the freeways were unusual in comparison to other roads and seldom speed related. I now live in the Columbus area. Speeds are high on the freeways, but most of the crashes are at lower speeds during rush hour when traffic is "slow and go".

This brings me to my father's major point made one time was that speed wasn't the issue. The issue is either failure to yield right-of-way or failure to control and that neither are actually speed related, they're driver related.

Some people feel they own the road, like that driver with his bumper a foot off yours when you're actually doing 65 mph or the one that swings out and into your safety margin in traffic to gain a second. It's not speed, it's the driver, they'd do both at 20 mph too.

Some people can't control a car at 50 mph as is frequently seen in one car accidents with new drivers. The road is totally safe at 50 yet the driver crashes. It's not speed, it's the driver.

If someone can traverse a corner at the posted limit without crashing, yet the driver behind them crashes, is the speed limit too high or is the driver too unskilled? If someone on the freeway swerves out into another lane and either causes a crash or crashes themselves, is the speed limit too high or the driver failing to yield or lacking in skill? Remember, both can occur at speeds from 35 to 70 mph and both can result in fatalities. We see that first example every year with new riders overestimating their skills or underestimating the corner speed they should run. Speed limits can control neither of those responses.
 
#17 ·
Lowering speed limits has several negative effects, especially on professional drivers. The two main ones, pointed out again by my father, are boredom and fatigue. Doing 55 mph on a lot of the interstate highways is like doing 20 mph in a school zone. Your attention wanders. That's not good with a truck or a cage of any kind. Then there's the additional time taken to cover the mileage. A ten hour drive becomes a twelve hour drive.

Another factor is where traffic goes based on speed limits. When the limits on highways went to 55 mph more traffic went off onto lesser patrolled secondary highways because they could speed with less risk of being picked up. The 4 lane deaths dropped, but the two lane picked up. When the speed limit went back up the two lane death rate dropped and the 4 lane rose a bit again. More people travel where they can move the fastest.

And, contrary to your thoughts, interstate travel is the safest of all the roadways. Most of the crashes you are considering are going to be in urban areas like Cleveland, Akron/Canton and the like. I lived in New Philadelphia, right beside I-77 for over 50 years. Major crashes on the freeways were unusual in comparison to other roads and seldom speed related. I now live in the Columbus area. Speeds are high on the freeways, but most of the crashes are at lower speeds during rush hour when traffic is "slow and go".

This brings me to my father's major point made one time was that speed wasn't the issue. The issue is either failure to yield right-of-way or failure to control and that neither are actually speed related, they're driver related.

Some people feel they own the road, like that driver with his bumper a foot off yours when you're actually doing 65 mph or the one that swings out and into your safety margin in traffic to gain a second. It's not speed, it's the driver, they'd do both at 20 mph too.

Some people can't control a car at 50 mph as is frequently seen in one car accidents with new drivers. The road is totally safe at 50 yet the driver crashes. It's not speed, it's the driver.

If someone can traverse a corner at the posted limit without crashing, yet the driver behind them crashes, is the speed limit too high or is the driver too unskilled? If someone on the freeway swerves out into another lane and either causes a crash or crashes themselves, is the speed limit too high or the driver failing to yield or lacking in skill? Remember, both can occur at speeds from 35 to 70 mph and both can result in fatalities. We see that first example every year with new riders overestimating their skills or underestimating the corner speed they should run. Speed limits can control neither of those responses.
Practically ALL accidents are caused by BAD drivers!
Most of the time, they cause them and escape unharmed and not reported to do it again and again. :mad:
MOST of these morons are unaware of what they are doing or just don't give a Rat's but!

Eric
 
#6 ·
Unfortunately we have no perfect roads (constant repairs and patch jobs), perfect cars (ask Toyota), or perfect drivers ( ask the guy in Charleston, who passed the car in the right lane, next to me, on the berm and then was in my blind spot when I went to change lanes again, but I saw when I turned and looked before moving into that lane...all because we were not going "fast" enough for him)

And ask the people in the last week who have been injured or who have lost someone dear to them on 77!

I stand by my opinion
 
#8 · (Edited)
You just made my point, it's not the speed - it's the driver. He'd be that way as quickly at 35 as 85. Also it happens in urban areas, not in the wide open of Ohio south of Canton Ohio on I-77. The bad accidents there are not due to speed, they're due to bad driving. The road WAS designed for 70 and is relatively straight. If you can not handle the 65 mph speed, get off the Interstate. (Of course this doesn't apply to construction areas though.)

Come to the "big city" in rush hour and see if I'm wrong!

I'll bet you already know that I'm right.

One of the worst accidents I remember on I-77 happened when the limits were 55 mph. A trucker, under the influence of something if I remember right, basically ran his loaded semi over a car that was in the left lane passing some others. He was speeding, but could have slowed - he didn't. It wasn't the speed, it was the driver. Clearly the driver in the car must not have noticed the truck coming on, otherwise they might have picked up the pace to avoid the accident. Not their fault, but an error none the less.

There is nothing you can do with speed limits to stop foolish, selfish, and unskilled drivers. This is what I learned from the traffic control engineer, who saw every fatality and major accident that occurred on state, US, and interstate highways, for fifteen years in division 11 of the ODOT.

By the way, if I-77 bothers you that much and you think that it's so dangerous I suggest you stay off most of the rest of the highways in SE Ohio, they're much more dangerous than I-77 since most have a speed limit of 55 mph with some exceptions.
 
#9 ·
I think you can safely go 70 on a road that is built for that speed. The driver needs to pay attention, get off the phone, quit eating, keep your eyes on the road...etc. Now with that said, people are not doing this and most will never do this. So if the speed limit is lowered it should not be because the stretch of highway is unsafe, it's because of the idiot drivers. I think there will be accidents on any highway in this country no matter what the speed limit is because of the drivers not driving.
 
#15 ·
it would be best if drivers all got their heads outta their asses and just followed the rules of the road, speed limit, safe following distances, using turn signals to change lanes and to stop trying to get there .0015 seconds faster than the person in front of you.

I drove a truck over the road for years, I drive a school bus now, most people with a license, shouldn't have one, and I also think that people should have to take a refresher road test every 3-5 years.
 
#16 · (Edited)
it would be best if drivers all got their heads outta their asses and just followed the rules of the road, speed limit, safe following distances, using turn signals to change lanes and to stop trying to get there .0015 seconds faster than the person in front of you.

Most people with a license, shouldn't have one, and I also think that people should have to take a refresher road test every 3-5 years.

AMEN BROTHER!!! :thumbsup:

Those points alone, would get 80+% of the vehicles off of the roads! :mad:

Add a $1,000 fine and 3 points to talking/texting while driving to those as well!


Eric
 
#20 ·
Update on Accident

The man in the pickup truck was not severely injured, walked away (back and neck pain). He was northbound, blew a tire, lost control, which launched him across the median and into the southbound lanes where he was hit by a van. The van driver had two broken legs...I didn't even see the van..must have been on the other side of the burning truck. The truck split in two and just before it blew up, a nurse and two men pulled the man from the passenger seat!
 
#26 ·
The man in the pickup truck was not severely injured, walked away (back and neck pain). He was northbound, blew a tire, lost control, which launched him across the median and into the southbound lanes where he was hit by a van. The van driver had two broken legs...I didn't even see the van..must have been on the other side of the burning truck. The truck split in two and just before it blew up, a nurse and two men pulled the man from the passenger seat!
So tell me about that speed thing again...

How did it play in this?

Sounds more like equipment failure or a road hazard to me.
 
#27 ·
If speed kills, why aren't all those people who race dead? Why aren't those who seem to be able to ride down a wide open road at 90 dead? Am I missing something here? Where's the bolt of lightning that strikes me dead when I'm doing 65 on a road with a 55 mph limit?

Read your last line...

that ain't speed, that's either failure to control or failure to yield. Much as I have been saying. Your line would make a good argument for not allowing any motorvehicles on the road. After all, I've seen quite literally hundreds of news stories where excessive speed is cited as the cause of an accident, yet the speed done was lower than the posted limit. The fact is when someone fails to control it isn't speed - it's failure to control, period.
 
#25 ·
Rarely is it speed alone that kills. It's the variance in speed. If everyone went 70 mph, it would be much safer on the highway. Same with everyone going 55 mph. The most dangerous thing I've ever seen on the highway is the guy driving 45 mph because he wants to be extra careful but in reality he's increasing the risk level because everyone else is going 65 or 70.
 
#29 ·
Speed at a drag strip or a race track is totally a different matter. First of all, the drivers are trained to handle the higher speed. When there are accidents it's generally for two reasons...inexperience or driving at a speed that is beyond an individual's ability to handle speed. Obviously different people have different reaction times and points of confusion. Experience sharpens skills but it also teaches drivers the limits of their driving abilities.

Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public generally have no sense of their limitations. Unfortunately they are too often taught their limits only after they've made a gruesome error and distroyed either their life or that of an innocent rider, driver, or pedestrian.

CD
 
#30 · (Edited)
When there are accidents it's generally for two reasons...
1) inexperience
2) driving at a speed that is beyond an individual's ability to handle speed.
I think what mark is trying to say is that these two are the same thing. It isn't the speed that kills someone, it's their inability to handle or judge the speed at which they're traveling

Two people can travel the same road at the same speed, 1 crashes and 1 doesn't. The news would report that speed killed the 1 who crashed, but why didn't the other person crash? Because they are a "better" driver.

An inexperienced person speeding can definitely lead to them losing control or taking a corner too fast etc.. but it is not solely the speed that killed them.

There are far too many variables in any wreck to boil it down to simply, "speed kills."
 
#31 ·
OK, here's the real scope on speed.
Speed is energy. The faster you go,
the more energy you and your vehicle
carry.

When something goes wrong, all that
energy gets used up smashing metal
and body parts. The more energy,
the more smashing.

A corrolary to this is that speed is
the opposite of time. The faster
you go, the less time you spend.
You spend less time getting there,
but you also have less time to
think and react to changing conditions.

Put both of these together, and
you have a really good case for
not going 85 mph on a road designed
to be safe at 70 mph.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Good point meadow, but you can't neglect factors like the car and driver. An 80 year old lady in a Buick LeSabre can't perform the same as a responsible young buck in a 370z. If they're both going 100mph and the young person isn't an idiot, he would have a much better chance of avoiding an accident than grandma. Both he and his car have faster reaction times than her. So in this instance is it the speed that kills, or the inability of the driver?

edit: I suppose it could be argued that the speed is what is causing the person's ability to degrade. Therefore putting the speed at fault under certain circumstances... and now I've just taken myself full circle and I'm done. :tongue:
 
#33 ·
"Changing conditions."

It doesn't matter how good a driver
you are going 100 mph when a granny
going the speed limit smacks you
with her caddy.

Not even considering that you may
have had time to avoid the crash if
you were driving slower, you still get
hurt worse at higher speeds.

Slow causes crashes too, but they
are more likely to maim (and cost)
but speed does kill.

I'm not in favor of lowering the speed
limits, as you may think from these
posts. I am in favor of setting reasonable
speed limits and following them.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Speed by itself means absolutely nothing. Speed needs a reference to matter at all. This reference is composed of road conditions, weather, vehicles, and drivers.

A speed limit of 70 mph means nothing without taking these factors into consideration.

Of course speed by itself doesn't kill, it means nothing - by itself. But when you combine speed with the factors above, then all kinds of interesting things happen, and the speed limit should reflect not a perfect driver driving a perfectly handling car in perfect weather. As much as we'd like for everyone to take a curve under those conditions, that's not real life, and we live in the real life world, not the ideal world.

So a speed limit I think should take the little old lady with slow reactions and her 1970's Buick with possibly under-inflated tires and bad handling capabilities into consideration in that posted speed.

Some may argue, well, she shouldn't be driving that car at that age... again... that's not the real world we live in.

Race drivers are professionally trained and are driving cars engineered and built for handling high speeds... so again, speed is not the main factor, it's speed combined with those factors. Here, it's speed combined with pro drivers with high tech cars and tires. But push those same cars and drivers to 380mph and see what happens... then that speed with those same factors are improperly matched, and bad things can happen. However, jets can fly at Mach2 and be fine; it's the speed combined with other (proper) factors.

In the real world, it's speed combined with many and far more imperfect variables: roads, animals, cars, drivers, weather, equipment.

So yes, speed alone does not kill, but that's not a complete argument; speed alone means nothing at all. It is speed when combined with real world factors that can be dangerous or not. Otherwise, speed means absolutely nothing.

So, a 70mph limit is not without blame if it does not factor in these variables.

Also, the faster one drives, the more ground we cover in our reaction time... by sometimes hundreds of feet of difference.

Don't get me wrong, I like high speeds, when and where appropriate and safe. It's just not for everyone and everywhere, and I think speed limits should reflect those variables... not just to save time and money, but to save something much more important - lives.
 
#35 ·
Speed is irrelevant if you factor stupidity out of the equation. There's nothing to smash into when people keep their cars in their own lanes instead of sideways across both lanes, bouncing off guardrails, or in this case...into oncoming traffic by driving on what could only have been sub-standard tires. If everyone would put down the phones, get enough rest, and pull over to eat, put on makeup or fight with the person in the back seat, speed wouldn't factor in accidents because there would be far fewer accidents occurring. So when people say 'speed kills', speed is the secondary ingredient to what was already a bad situation. Some dummy at the front of the line gets his car sideways on the highway, and the car behind him hits him at a certain 'energy level', depending on if he is traveling 50mph or 70 mph. Impacting a stopped car at 50mph may not kill the occupants, break the car in half, etc…. but 70mph might.
I guess this means we all need to slow down and lengthen our drive times in order to avoid killing the dumbasses? How about we educate, or get rid of the dumbasses instead? Imagine how much better the traffic situation would be if you could somehow eradicate the stupid drivers. Unfortunately, miracles are few and far between.
 
#36 ·
Speed is irrelevant if you factor stupidity out of the equation.
I guess this means we all need to slow down and lengthen our drive times in order to avoid killing the dumbasses?
How about we educate, or get rid of the dumbasses instead? Imagine how much better the traffic situation would be
if you could somehow eradicate the stupid drivers.
Unfortunately, miracles are few and far between.
In this short video, I am actually doing THE SPEED LIMIT (45) on this road.
NOT the "suggested" safe speed on those pesky yellow signs... :rolleyes:
Just a casual ride on a fun stretch of roadway.

Before the ride, I checked the condition of the tires and air pressure was adjusted for anticipated road conditions. ( Traction AA Rated ZR tires. :thumbsup: )

TURN UP THE VOLUME after 15 seconds into the video!!!
(Great driving tune!)
And, go to FULL SCREEN!



Even the music on the radio station seems to know when a road block is about to occur! LOL!

I will have to dig up my motorcycle vid where a competent driver,
pulls over at the exact same spot, where the silver "road block" was NOT looking before pulling out, to allow me to continue.
Of course, I anticipated the road block! ;)

Disclaimer: Sorry for the ugly driver in parts of the vid.


Eric :)
 
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