Problem , paid money and...

vanishingpoint · 07-13-2012, 04:46 PM

I just found motorcycle in North Jersey ( HD V-rod muscle 09), called the guy and arranged meeting, he told me he has to pay off bike to get title from the bank. I went there , saw the bike, make a test drive , paid him $9500, make a bill of sale and he wrote paper that he took money. I took motorcycle on the trailer and waited 2 weeks. I called guy and asked where is title, he told me he called bank and it will take 4 weeks. Waited 2 weeks more and called him, he told he didnt get the title because he has 2 loans on the bike. I dont belive him because it is not possible to have 2 loans on one bike and it takes max 2 weeks . What to do guys?? I was collecting money for that bike almost 4 years and now don't have money and have bike without title ;/;/;/

Dodsfall · 07-13-2012, 05:20 PM

You are kind of stuck there. You can take him to court and sue to get your money back, but odds are it's already spent.

It's also likely he hasn't been making the payments on the other loans, which means there is a good chance there is a repossession order out on it. Whoever holds the title lien can legally take the motorcycle from you, and you can't register or title it until the lien is removed.

The only way to get a clear title would be to pay off the loans, and trust that the guy doesn't just hold onto the title himself and take the motorcycle back.

It's not a good idea to buy a motorcycle or anything else unless the seller a clear title in hand. The seller might even have every intention of paying off their debt and getting the title to you when you hand over the cash. When it comes time to actually write the check, all too often they balk and find a reason not to pay.

recoiljunky · 07-20-2012, 10:15 PM

didnt your daddy ever tell you not to show any cash without a title on the table. im sorry for your loss of that fat stack of money.

bajakirch · 07-21-2012, 12:00 AM

I'm sorry to say this, but I think you've just been screwed out of $9500.

You never, never, NEVER hand over cash without getting a clear title in hand on the spot.

A sad, expensive lesson.

jrw69 · 07-25-2012, 03:54 PM

Dods, no disrespect as you are a wealth of knowledge, but I thought in most states as long as it is worded correctly the bill of sale is recognized as a legal transaction no matter what the lean is. Once he signed the bill of sale it then becomes between him and the bank and a legal issue for nonpayment. I can't remember the legal term for the document to fill out, but it is basically a release from the 3rd party being legally liable for anything against the bike or his bank. I'm not saying you may get to keep it, but I also don't think they can repo from you. It also may be true that he does two loans against the bike if he found a way to use the bike as collateral, usually at one of the quick loan places that you just shown them property, almost like pawn deal. If I am incorrect, I apologize. Either way, everyone else is right, title then money!

Dodsfall · 07-25-2012, 04:03 PM

The holder of the title is the legal owner. In this case, it's the bank. Even if you have a bill of sale, it doesn't effect the bank's ownership.

For example, I could write up a bill of sale for your motorcycle and let someone take possession of it while you aren't at home, but that doesn't make the transaction legal or mean you can't get your property back from them.

I have been thinking that maybe I was wrong earlier by saying it was only a civil matter. I think there may be a case for fraud on the seller's part, since he didn't have a legal means of actually selling and releasing the property without permission of the lien holder.

It may be worth talking to the local constabulary about the matter since he defrauded both the buyer and the bank.

jrw69 · 07-25-2012, 04:08 PM

Thanks for the info. He can also go by the local DMV with the VIN number and contact the bank. Maybe him being a helping party in the matter might work to his advantage along with the police.

bajakirch · 07-25-2012, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodsfall

The holder of the title is the legal owner. In this case, it's the bank. Even if you have a bill of sale, it doesn't effect the bank's ownership.

For example, I could write up a bill of sale for your motorcycle and let someone take possession of it while you aren't at home, but that doesn't make the transaction legal or mean you can't get your property back from them.

I have been thinking that maybe I was wrong earlier by saying it was only a civil matter. I think there may be a case for fraud on the seller's part, since he didn't have a legal means of actually selling and releasing the property without permission of the lien holder.

It may be worth talking to the local constabulary about the matter since he defrauded both the buyer and the bank.

I agree with this; you definitely want to get the police involved. Laws are different in all states, but this may meet the definition of fraud where you live. He portrayed himself as owner and took your cash. The thing that might go in your favor is that he signed the bill of sale.

At $9500, that would make it a felony around here. That means big-boy jail if convicted.

Maybe a knock on the door from the local police will be enough to get him to return all (or at least most) of your money.

slumlord · 11-30-2012, 04:54 AM

I am even now finding out that there is a way that an owner can freeze you out of a title that looks good,but is no good. let's say that I buy a bike used in 1993 and then lose the title. I then apply for a lost title in 1999 and get a replacement title. I go to sell the bike and use the old title. If you take the original title to the BMV to get a new title in your name, ain't gonna happen.
If the PO is an A-hole or cannot be found,you now have a paperweight and not a bike you can ride. Let's say the PO got a job in North Dakota and just wanted to get rid of his stuff in Tennessee. He signs the 1993 old title he found in the sock drawer, leaves for his job in the oil fields and now he cannot be found. Maybe he gets a bank loan with the current 1999 title. Now you cannot find him AND you bike has a loan and lien against it.
So I guess that you need to both be present at the BMV in the state which the title is issued and get a clear title in your name and then hand him the money.
I told my title fiasco story http://www.motorcycleforum.com/showthread.php?t=118778 to a wrecking yard owner,and he said they occasionally buy old cars with original titles that prove to be no good. Instead of selling parts from them,they just go to the crusher.

RobMoore · 11-30-2012, 07:50 AM

The desire to take the bike home that day was too strong, I guess.

I've never done such a deal, but I think I'd go to the bank with the owner and pay them. That way, you know exactly how much is owed, and you see the lien release before you pay.

chefonahonda · 11-30-2012, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanishingpoint

I just found motorcycle in North Jersey ( HD V-rod muscle 09), called the guy and arranged meeting, he told me he has to pay off bike to get title from the bank. I went there , saw the bike, make a test drive , paid him $9500, make a bill of sale and he wrote paper that he took money. I took motorcycle on the trailer and waited 2 weeks. I called guy and asked where is title, he told me he called bank and it will take 4 weeks. Waited 2 weeks more and called him, he told he didnt get the title because he has 2 loans on the bike. I dont belive him because it is not possible to have 2 loans on one bike and it takes max 2 weeks . What to do guys?? I was collecting money for that bike almost 4 years and now don't have money and have bike without title ;/;/;/

I want to know what has occurred for you on this matter. I have been looking at for sale by owner bikes and have come across 2 where the owner said he had clear title but had a bank lien on the bike and did not want to disclose. I walked away from both. I have bank loan on my bike, probably owe more than she is worth.

MONI · 11-30-2012, 08:23 PM

Not only would I want to go to the bank, I would want to have the VIN ran thru DMV to make sure there wasn't a 2nd loan or lien out there. Here in MO you can now receive the title when the vehicle has a lien. The title will show lien holder and owner as owners. Then when it is paid off you get a letter from the lien holder to put with the title if/when you resell the vehicle. DMV also tells you to keep the release with the title as opposed to a new title being issued.

It's kind of scary to buy from an individual unless you meet at DMV & complete the title part of the transaction. And now the title doesn't even have to be signed in front of a notary here in MO.

Talonz82 · 12-01-2012, 06:53 AM

Sorry to hear about this kind of trouble, I have bought MCs and cars with leins, I chose to go to the bank with the seller and fork out the cash and get a letter of lein release on the spot. Not a lawyer so I can only speculate, my advice is to stash the bike where it cannot be found until you work this out, its said that possession is 9/10th of the law....good luck with this

LWRider · 12-03-2012, 10:52 AM

Talk to law enforcement. The guy is a criminal and this may be a criminal matter. I just went through something like this (although it was over much less $; I bought parts through a bike shop that were never delivered, as had a bunch of other people it turned out) and they prosecuted the guy, won, and he had to pay restitution to everyone he had ripped off. I have been paid back. It was all a big, big hassle, though, I have to tell you, but for that kind of money it might be worth it. I was interviewed by the police, which was recorded. Had to do a deposition at the county courthouse. Was called as a witness (but apparently he must have pled guilty as I was never had to testify). Now I have to file myself a satisfaction of lien to say he has paid under penalty of law if I do not and no one seems to know how to go about that (already wasted a trip to the county courthouse and back)! Still, to just know that he did not go off free feels good. More people need to be held accountable.

Good luck,

Mike

Peter Darby · 12-17-2012, 12:07 PM

Get a lawyer. I bought a used Porshe from the local Rolls Royce dealer with a bank loan. When I was on my second set of temporary tags I called the dealer and got a runaround. I got a lawyer and it turns out the original buyer got a loan(same bank I used) but somehow DMV issued two original titles and sent one to the bank and one to the owner. He then sold the car to the dealer using his original title. Who sold it to me a couple of days later before the papterwork snafu caught up with the car. Eventually I ended up dropping the car off at the dealer and telling them to take care of it. (The thing was costing me about $500 per month in repairs for stupid things like the passenger window shattering becaue you closed the hatchback) If I hadn't engaged the lawyer the cost to me would have been much worse.

07-13-2012, 04:46 PM	#1
vanishingpoint Newbie Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 4	Problem , paid money and... I just found motorcycle in North Jersey ( HD V-rod muscle 09), called the guy and arranged meeting, he told me he has to pay off bike to get title from the bank. I went there , saw the bike, make a test drive , paid him $9500, make a bill of sale and he wrote paper that he took money. I took motorcycle on the trailer and waited 2 weeks. I called guy and asked where is title, he told me he called bank and it will take 4 weeks. Waited 2 weeks more and called him, he told he didnt get the title because he has 2 loans on the bike. I dont belive him because it is not possible to have 2 loans on one bike and it takes max 2 weeks . What to do guys?? I was collecting money for that bike almost 4 years and now don't have money and have bike without title ;/;/;/

07-13-2012, 05:20 PM	#2
Dodsfall Administrator Join Date: May 2008 Location: Illinois, USA Posts: 15,907	You are kind of stuck there. You can take him to court and sue to get your money back, but odds are it's already spent. It's also likely he hasn't been making the payments on the other loans, which means there is a good chance there is a repossession order out on it. Whoever holds the title lien can legally take the motorcycle from you, and you can't register or title it until the lien is removed. The only way to get a clear title would be to pay off the loans, and trust that the guy doesn't just hold onto the title himself and take the motorcycle back. It's not a good idea to buy a motorcycle or anything else unless the seller a clear title in hand. The seller might even have every intention of paying off their debt and getting the title to you when you hand over the cash. When it comes time to actually write the check, all too often they balk and find a reason not to pay. __________________ 2008 XL1200R To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

07-21-2012, 12:00 AM	#4
bajakirch Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 307	I'm sorry to say this, but I think you've just been screwed out of $9500. You never, never, NEVER hand over cash without getting a clear title in hand on the spot. A sad, expensive lesson. __________________ 98 Kawasaki Concours

07-25-2012, 03:54 PM	#5
jrw69 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 465	Dods, no disrespect as you are a wealth of knowledge, but I thought in most states as long as it is worded correctly the bill of sale is recognized as a legal transaction no matter what the lean is. Once he signed the bill of sale it then becomes between him and the bank and a legal issue for nonpayment. I can't remember the legal term for the document to fill out, but it is basically a release from the 3rd party being legally liable for anything against the bike or his bank. I'm not saying you may get to keep it, but I also don't think they can repo from you. It also may be true that he does two loans against the bike if he found a way to use the bike as collateral, usually at one of the quick loan places that you just shown them property, almost like pawn deal. If I am incorrect, I apologize. Either way, everyone else is right, title then money! Last edited by jrw69; 07-25-2012 at 03:56 PM..

07-25-2012, 04:03 PM	#6
Dodsfall Administrator Join Date: May 2008 Location: Illinois, USA Posts: 15,907	The holder of the title is the legal owner. In this case, it's the bank. Even if you have a bill of sale, it doesn't effect the bank's ownership. For example, I could write up a bill of sale for your motorcycle and let someone take possession of it while you aren't at home, but that doesn't make the transaction legal or mean you can't get your property back from them. I have been thinking that maybe I was wrong earlier by saying it was only a civil matter. I think there may be a case for fraud on the seller's part, since he didn't have a legal means of actually selling and releasing the property without permission of the lien holder. It may be worth talking to the local constabulary about the matter since he defrauded both the buyer and the bank. __________________ 2008 XL1200R To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

07-20-2012, 10:15 PM	#3
recoiljunky Verified Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Jupiter, Fl Posts: 48	didnt your daddy ever tell you not to show any cash without a title on the table. im sorry for your loss of that fat stack of money.

07-25-2012, 04:08 PM	#7
jrw69 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 465	Thanks for the info. He can also go by the local DMV with the VIN number and contact the bank. Maybe him being a helping party in the matter might work to his advantage along with the police.

11-30-2012, 04:54 AM	#9
slumlord Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,535	I am even now finding out that there is a way that an owner can freeze you out of a title that looks good,but is no good. let's say that I buy a bike used in 1993 and then lose the title. I then apply for a lost title in 1999 and get a replacement title. I go to sell the bike and use the old title. If you take the original title to the BMV to get a new title in your name, ain't gonna happen. If the PO is an A-hole or cannot be found,you now have a paperweight and not a bike you can ride. Let's say the PO got a job in North Dakota and just wanted to get rid of his stuff in Tennessee. He signs the 1993 old title he found in the sock drawer, leaves for his job in the oil fields and now he cannot be found. Maybe he gets a bank loan with the current 1999 title. Now you cannot find him AND you bike has a loan and lien against it. So I guess that you need to both be present at the BMV in the state which the title is issued and get a clear title in your name and then hand him the money. I told my title fiasco story http://www.motorcycleforum.com/showthread.php?t=118778 to a wrecking yard owner,and he said they occasionally buy old cars with original titles that prove to be no good. Instead of selling parts from them,they just go to the crusher. __________________ Pull off the Band-Aid. Eat our peas. Just do it.

11-30-2012, 07:50 AM	#10
RobMoore Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Queen Anne's Posts: 621	The desire to take the bike home that day was too strong, I guess. I've never done such a deal, but I think I'd go to the bank with the owner and pay them. That way, you know exactly how much is owed, and you see the lien release before you pay.

11-30-2012, 08:23 PM	#12
MONI Female Rider Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,968	Not only would I want to go to the bank, I would want to have the VIN ran thru DMV to make sure there wasn't a 2nd loan or lien out there. Here in MO you can now receive the title when the vehicle has a lien. The title will show lien holder and owner as owners. Then when it is paid off you get a letter from the lien holder to put with the title if/when you resell the vehicle. DMV also tells you to keep the release with the title as opposed to a new title being issued. It's kind of scary to buy from an individual unless you meet at DMV & complete the title part of the transaction. And now the title doesn't even have to be signed in front of a notary here in MO.

12-01-2012, 06:53 AM	#13
Talonz82 Verified Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 32	Sorry to hear about this kind of trouble, I have bought MCs and cars with leins, I chose to go to the bank with the seller and fork out the cash and get a letter of lein release on the spot. Not a lawyer so I can only speculate, my advice is to stash the bike where it cannot be found until you work this out, its said that possession is 9/10th of the law....good luck with this

12-03-2012, 10:52 AM	#14
LWRider Challenged Mechanic Join Date: May 2009 Location: Lake Wales, FL Posts: 2,321	Talk to law enforcement. The guy is a criminal and this may be a criminal matter. I just went through something like this (although it was over much less $; I bought parts through a bike shop that were never delivered, as had a bunch of other people it turned out) and they prosecuted the guy, won, and he had to pay restitution to everyone he had ripped off. I have been paid back. It was all a big, big hassle, though, I have to tell you, but for that kind of money it might be worth it. I was interviewed by the police, which was recorded. Had to do a deposition at the county courthouse. Was called as a witness (but apparently he must have pled guilty as I was never had to testify). Now I have to file myself a satisfaction of lien to say he has paid under penalty of law if I do not and no one seems to know how to go about that (already wasted a trip to the county courthouse and back)! Still, to just know that he did not go off free feels good. More people need to be held accountable. Good luck, Mike __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

12-17-2012, 12:07 PM	#15
Peter Darby Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 264	Get a lawyer. I bought a used Porshe from the local Rolls Royce dealer with a bank loan. When I was on my second set of temporary tags I called the dealer and got a runaround. I got a lawyer and it turns out the original buyer got a loan(same bank I used) but somehow DMV issued two original titles and sent one to the bank and one to the owner. He then sold the car to the dealer using his original title. Who sold it to me a couple of days later before the papterwork snafu caught up with the car. Eventually I ended up dropping the car off at the dealer and telling them to take care of it. (The thing was costing me about $500 per month in repairs for stupid things like the passenger window shattering becaue you closed the hatchback) If I hadn't engaged the lawyer the cost to me would have been much worse.

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