BRC questions

CBeth · 08-11-2012, 09:08 PM

I started taking te MSF BRC and have a few questions. Friday night was classroom, riding today and tomorrow with the evaluation immediately after te last lesson tomorrow. There are a couple of things I didn't get a chance to ask the instructors before they left and I'd like to clear it up before class tomorrow.

First a little background: My biggest issue is getting the bike moving - pretty important! I don't have a very good grasp on the friction zone yet. It just started to make sense and become easier at the end of the day, so I didn't really have a chance to fully explore it. My stepdad has a Harley but its way too big for me to practice on. He tried to show me a little today night, but he's terrible at explaining or teaching, so I'm not sure I got what he was trying to say. I'm also not 100% confident HE does things correctly and don't want to pick up bad habits!

1. When you stop and turn off the bike, should it be in neutral or first gear?

2. Ok, so now the bike is on and in first gear. I have the clutch fully squeezed but not the brake. I ease the clutch the clutch into the friction zone to start moving forward. Then I roll on the throttle just a little bit and ease the clutch out the rest of the way. Correct or no?

3. Pick up from #2. I've released the clutch, giving it a little more gas. Do I then squeeze the clutch and shift into second right away, if getting into second is the goal? And while shifting, I roll off the throttle a little, right? But not all the way back to idle?

I know I sound like an idiot. The way I learn, I know once everything clicks into place, I'll be great. I just kind of need things broken down step by step a little, then I can put it all together easily and pick it up quickly. If I had a smaller bike to practice on already, I think I could figure this all out in an hour in a parking lot and be more confident about tomorrow. But with little and rushed practice, I get nervous about falling behind. I won't be able to take the class again for another year since I could barely get this weekend off, so I'd really like to pass it the first time.

Dodsfall · 08-11-2012, 09:22 PM

1) Either will work unless you are on a hill. If the ground isn't level, leave it in gear to keep it from rolling.

2) The throttle and the clutch should be used at the same time. Don't over-think it as a 5-step process. The more practice you get, the smoother it will become.

The important thing to remember is that you are trying to gradually add power to the rear wheel while giving the engine enough throttle to provide the needed power. The clutch is not an on/off switch. Think of it more like a faucet carefully filling a cup without splashing water out; gradual is the way to go.

3) You allow the engine to wind out a bit before shifting. Let the throttle roll back to idle, pull the clutch in, shift, then smoothly let the clutch out while giving it some throttle.

Those are good questions. It might seem a little overwhelming at first, but controlling the motorcycle will become second nature after more practice. It's like learning to walk: baby steps at first then build on what you learn.

ralphlong · 08-11-2012, 09:36 PM

Don't worry, all your questions and more will be answered as you proceed through the exercises. Just remain calm, listen to the instructions, watch how they demonstrate what to do. Don't be afraid to ask questions.

But to answer your questions:

1) it depends on the situation and if you want the bike to be in gear to act as a parking brake. Most of the time the instructors will want you to leave the bike in neutral, but if the range is sloped at all they may want the bike in gear. This will be explained to you.

2) you got it right. How much throttle you need and how far you need to let the clutch out before you enter the friction zone will depend on the bike. This will be explained to you.

3) you need to shift into second when the engine speed requires a shift. Probably at about 5 mph or so. This will be explained to you.

Relax. MSF has taught thousands of people just like you to ride. Just listen, and don't be cocky. Most people get it and pass the course. Some don't, but most do. The ones that dont are usually the ones who don't listen or have not even thought riding through as far as you have.

Your asking these questions shows you are thinking things through. Good job!

Let us know how you make out.

Ralph

stantony1 · 08-11-2012, 09:40 PM

I'm no expert but I found that control of the clutch takes priority over the throttle. If you are constant on the throttle and manipulate the clutch, you smooth out your ride.

1: Your choice. I leave it in gear to prevent rolling.
2: To start, I roll on throttle and keep it constant and then release the clutch into the throttle. Over time, this becomes a one step process.
3: I usually feather the clutch while in first since it is really jumpy. It keeps it smooth. When I reach a speed that I think will be smooth for 2nd fully engaged, I will then keep constant throttle and shift into 2nd with clutch fully engaged after shifting.

To each his own and again, I am not expert, but this worked for me in both car and motorcycle. It wastes more gas but initially, it is more control. Over time you can do both throttle and clutch at the same time and minimize wasting gas.

ralphlong · 08-11-2012, 09:45 PM

CBEth, I just Reread your post and realized that you have already been through day one of the riding exercises. So I guess some of my comments were not quite appropriate. Sorry.

Before you start riding tomorrow, just ask these questions of your RiderCoach. He will be happy to explain.

You do, however, seems to have a pretty good understanding of what to to. A little more practice will help it click. You will get plenty of practice tomorrow. You do a lot of riding on day two.

Have fun, and RELAX.

CBeth · 08-12-2012, 12:11 AM

I just want to thank everyone for their thoughtful responses. The way I learn, it really helps to hear it worded in different ways for it to click. I think I'm close enough to getting it all sorted that I should be ok for the test after a few more hours on the range with the instructors. I will definitely check back in and let everyone know how I make out.

Thanks again! Your advice really is appreciated!!

wwWRX · 08-12-2012, 12:37 PM

DISCLAIMER: I don't have any real bike experience at all (I'm here reading as that's all I can do until my course starts) but I've taught a few people to drive stick including my timid fiancee who learned on my WRX (which has a notoriously heavy clutch and is AWD leaving little room for error as the clutch will burn before the tires will chirp) without her stalling once!

The 'ah ha' moment for driving a manual car came to me and those I have taught with a simple exercise, which I imagine would work equally well on a bike...

Drive forward 1 foot, thats as far as you want to go, no more no less. To do it you won't even have to pull the clutch all the way out, use very small quantities of clutch out and gas down until you feel the friction. Just feel the clutch start to grasp, let it move you about a foot and then pull the clutch back in. Repeatedly moving forward a foot and then opening the clutch (pulling the lever all the way) and putting it back into neutral will allow you to get a real feel for the clutch, it's not about getting into first in a split second like a drag racer or experienced manual driver (attempting to do so will cause you to stall or burn out) it's about taking it slow and letting the clutch do the work. This should also help you immensely with feeling out hills/inclines. Eventually you will try to go 2 feet, then 3 and by 4 or 5 feet you will find that you are fully in first and that the clutch is out.

As far as the rest of the gears go, just take it slow, practice on a long straight with lots of room and don't rush through the gears, get to a good shifting point, note the RPM (say it to yourself "4,000 RPM 25mph going from 2nd to 3rd") and then try to shift smoothly and in a timely manner, your RPM should fall slightly while you are in neutral but not so far that you are too low to enter the next gear. Give it a little gas as you enter the next gear.

2nd-6th are all way easier to figure out then first, once you have first the rest is pie. Look up 'rev-matching', it will help you get a grasp on shifting into 2nd and up (it will sound complex but it's actually pretty easy), as well as how to downshift while braking or in order to bring up your RPM and make a pass.

Also look up how a clutch works on how stuff works or about.com understanding the mechanics helps a bit.

Good luck!

Kiwi Steve · 08-15-2012, 08:23 PM

Remember on a motorcycle it's OK to 'ride' the clutch - that is to use the clutch to control speed. In a car this will lead to excessive wear on the clutch plates. But most bikes have a 'wet clutch', that's a clutch which is lubricated by the transmission oil. So on a bike it's alright to partly ease the clutch lever to get a gentle take off, to sit on a hill or to back off some speed.

One exercise I was taught to do on a safety riding course I did was to ride around the circuit as slowly as possible with your right hand flat on the top of the tank. This means you're controlling the speed of the bike by using just the clutch lever.

Hope you've finished your course by now and you're more confident.

08-11-2012, 09:08 PM	#1
CBeth Motorcyclist Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 8	BRC questions I started taking te MSF BRC and have a few questions. Friday night was classroom, riding today and tomorrow with the evaluation immediately after te last lesson tomorrow. There are a couple of things I didn't get a chance to ask the instructors before they left and I'd like to clear it up before class tomorrow. First a little background: My biggest issue is getting the bike moving - pretty important! I don't have a very good grasp on the friction zone yet. It just started to make sense and become easier at the end of the day, so I didn't really have a chance to fully explore it. My stepdad has a Harley but its way too big for me to practice on. He tried to show me a little today night, but he's terrible at explaining or teaching, so I'm not sure I got what he was trying to say. I'm also not 100% confident HE does things correctly and don't want to pick up bad habits! 1. When you stop and turn off the bike, should it be in neutral or first gear? 2. Ok, so now the bike is on and in first gear. I have the clutch fully squeezed but not the brake. I ease the clutch the clutch into the friction zone to start moving forward. Then I roll on the throttle just a little bit and ease the clutch out the rest of the way. Correct or no? 3. Pick up from #2. I've released the clutch, giving it a little more gas. Do I then squeeze the clutch and shift into second right away, if getting into second is the goal? And while shifting, I roll off the throttle a little, right? But not all the way back to idle? I know I sound like an idiot. The way I learn, I know once everything clicks into place, I'll be great. I just kind of need things broken down step by step a little, then I can put it all together easily and pick it up quickly. If I had a smaller bike to practice on already, I think I could figure this all out in an hour in a parking lot and be more confident about tomorrow. But with little and rushed practice, I get nervous about falling behind. I won't be able to take the class again for another year since I could barely get this weekend off, so I'd really like to pass it the first time.

08-11-2012, 09:36 PM	#3
ralphlong Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Glendora, CA Posts: 1,311	Don't worry, all your questions and more will be answered as you proceed through the exercises. Just remain calm, listen to the instructions, watch how they demonstrate what to do. Don't be afraid to ask questions. But to answer your questions: 1) it depends on the situation and if you want the bike to be in gear to act as a parking brake. Most of the time the instructors will want you to leave the bike in neutral, but if the range is sloped at all they may want the bike in gear. This will be explained to you. 2) you got it right. How much throttle you need and how far you need to let the clutch out before you enter the friction zone will depend on the bike. This will be explained to you. 3) you need to shift into second when the engine speed requires a shift. Probably at about 5 mph or so. This will be explained to you. Relax. MSF has taught thousands of people just like you to ride. Just listen, and don't be cocky. Most people get it and pass the course. Some don't, but most do. The ones that dont are usually the ones who don't listen or have not even thought riding through as far as you have. Your asking these questions shows you are thinking things through. Good job! Let us know how you make out. Ralph Last edited by ralphlong; 08-11-2012 at 09:39 PM..

08-12-2012, 12:37 PM	#7
wwWRX Well Informed Newbie? Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: South East PA Posts: 108	DISCLAIMER: I don't have any real bike experience at all (I'm here reading as that's all I can do until my course starts) but I've taught a few people to drive stick including my timid fiancee who learned on my WRX (which has a notoriously heavy clutch and is AWD leaving little room for error as the clutch will burn before the tires will chirp) without her stalling once! The 'ah ha' moment for driving a manual car came to me and those I have taught with a simple exercise, which I imagine would work equally well on a bike... Drive forward 1 foot, thats as far as you want to go, no more no less. To do it you won't even have to pull the clutch all the way out, use very small quantities of clutch out and gas down until you feel the friction. Just feel the clutch start to grasp, let it move you about a foot and then pull the clutch back in. Repeatedly moving forward a foot and then opening the clutch (pulling the lever all the way) and putting it back into neutral will allow you to get a real feel for the clutch, it's not about getting into first in a split second like a drag racer or experienced manual driver (attempting to do so will cause you to stall or burn out) it's about taking it slow and letting the clutch do the work. This should also help you immensely with feeling out hills/inclines. Eventually you will try to go 2 feet, then 3 and by 4 or 5 feet you will find that you are fully in first and that the clutch is out. As far as the rest of the gears go, just take it slow, practice on a long straight with lots of room and don't rush through the gears, get to a good shifting point, note the RPM (say it to yourself "4,000 RPM 25mph going from 2nd to 3rd") and then try to shift smoothly and in a timely manner, your RPM should fall slightly while you are in neutral but not so far that you are too low to enter the next gear. Give it a little gas as you enter the next gear. 2nd-6th are all way easier to figure out then first, once you have first the rest is pie. Look up 'rev-matching', it will help you get a grasp on shifting into 2nd and up (it will sound complex but it's actually pretty easy), as well as how to downshift while braking or in order to bring up your RPM and make a pass. Also look up how a clutch works on how stuff works or about.com understanding the mechanics helps a bit. Good luck! Last edited by wwWRX; 08-12-2012 at 12:50 PM..

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08-11-2012, 09:22 PM	#2
Dodsfall Administrator Join Date: May 2008 Location: Illinois, USA Posts: 15,879	1) Either will work unless you are on a hill. If the ground isn't level, leave it in gear to keep it from rolling. 2) The throttle and the clutch should be used at the same time. Don't over-think it as a 5-step process. The more practice you get, the smoother it will become. The important thing to remember is that you are trying to gradually add power to the rear wheel while giving the engine enough throttle to provide the needed power. The clutch is not an on/off switch. Think of it more like a faucet carefully filling a cup without splashing water out; gradual is the way to go. 3) You allow the engine to wind out a bit before shifting. Let the throttle roll back to idle, pull the clutch in, shift, then smoothly let the clutch out while giving it some throttle. Those are good questions. It might seem a little overwhelming at first, but controlling the motorcycle will become second nature after more practice. It's like learning to walk: baby steps at first then build on what you learn. __________________ 2008 XL1200R To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-11-2012, 09:40 PM	#4
stantony1 Kindergarten Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: MA Posts: 530	I'm no expert but I found that control of the clutch takes priority over the throttle. If you are constant on the throttle and manipulate the clutch, you smooth out your ride. 1: Your choice. I leave it in gear to prevent rolling. 2: To start, I roll on throttle and keep it constant and then release the clutch into the throttle. Over time, this becomes a one step process. 3: I usually feather the clutch while in first since it is really jumpy. It keeps it smooth. When I reach a speed that I think will be smooth for 2nd fully engaged, I will then keep constant throttle and shift into 2nd with clutch fully engaged after shifting. To each his own and again, I am not expert, but this worked for me in both car and motorcycle. It wastes more gas but initially, it is more control. Over time you can do both throttle and clutch at the same time and minimize wasting gas.

08-11-2012, 09:45 PM	#5
ralphlong Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Glendora, CA Posts: 1,311	CBEth, I just Reread your post and realized that you have already been through day one of the riding exercises. So I guess some of my comments were not quite appropriate. Sorry. Before you start riding tomorrow, just ask these questions of your RiderCoach. He will be happy to explain. You do, however, seems to have a pretty good understanding of what to to. A little more practice will help it click. You will get plenty of practice tomorrow. You do a lot of riding on day two. Have fun, and RELAX.

08-12-2012, 12:11 AM	#6
CBeth Motorcyclist Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 8	I just want to thank everyone for their thoughtful responses. The way I learn, it really helps to hear it worded in different ways for it to click. I think I'm close enough to getting it all sorted that I should be ok for the test after a few more hours on the range with the instructors. I will definitely check back in and let everyone know how I make out. Thanks again! Your advice really is appreciated!!

08-15-2012, 08:23 PM	#8
Kiwi Steve Master At Arms Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Bay of Plenty, New Zealand Posts: 183	Remember on a motorcycle it's OK to 'ride' the clutch - that is to use the clutch to control speed. In a car this will lead to excessive wear on the clutch plates. But most bikes have a 'wet clutch', that's a clutch which is lubricated by the transmission oil. So on a bike it's alright to partly ease the clutch lever to get a gentle take off, to sit on a hill or to back off some speed. One exercise I was taught to do on a safety riding course I did was to ride around the circuit as slowly as possible with your right hand flat on the top of the tank. This means you're controlling the speed of the bike by using just the clutch lever. Hope you've finished your course by now and you're more confident.