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Old 12-25-2012, 12:01 AM   #41
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Well, if you're really into fast braking, then just install a super master cylinder and equip your forks with 4 brake cylinders per wheel... Might work better than a single or dual system.

I have to say that my single piston brake caliper, and single disc brake provides plenty of braking power; especially for city riding.
Perhaps not for racing, but then again, it's a cruiser bike, not a racing bike...
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:56 AM   #42
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i guess if you wanted better braking, without over complicating the system you could focus on the brake components themselves... a higher quality, vented brake rotor which bleeds off the heat caused by the friction of the brake faster would offer better braking performance without increasing the complexity of the system
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:27 PM   #43
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A true floating rotor will add to the braking ability also.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:15 PM   #44
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I got dual 300 mm disc brakes up front, and a single in the rear. like the response of stopping power if say a deer comes running out of the woods at last minute. Nearly destroyed one the other night as it jetted out in front of my plow while going 42 mph. I swear if I had not taped on the brake pedal, that deer would of been a blood bath all over my blade.

I have a halogen on my cruiser, like most bikes out there ( will upgrade to LED in future once I find one reasonably priced).

Though I would imagine when the time comes for pad replacements I will be paying more vs single up front, however out of all the bikes I owned with the exception of my ATV, I never replaced my pads on them. I must have owned about a dozen or so bikes since I was 11 years old.

I do find it amusing how some builders on TV like to build bikes with ridiculously huge wheels, and have one average single rotor up front and claim it is worthy of a daily rider. And the 1-2 gallon tank sometimes they use only cough:cough: PJD cough:cough:

As far as your ride coming standard with a single disc brake up front, unless you are upgrading the wheel size, I personally wouldn't bother adding a dual set up. Single disc brakes are more then capable of stopping 400-500 lbs bikes. The heavier ones 750 lbs and up, thats where a dual set up makes more sense, that and super sport bikes cause of their potential high rate of top end speed, which some may or might not want to travel at that rate of speed. But it's a peice of mind knowing you have the dual disc brakes.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:50 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Eye_m_no_angel View Post
It's in human nature to want to "upgrade" our rides in some way, shape, or form. It's also in the nature of our rides that many of these "upgrades" don't really need to be done. A prime example is in brakes.
I am inclined to agree, although I recently had a ride on a Harley 883 Sportster with a single disc and it was scary.
I mean that bike is quite a heavy lump, and whilst it's all very well saying it's a cruiser and not a sports bike, you might still want to haul it up quickly from 70mph one day, and I pity anyone in that situation aboard that bike.
What's even more unforgiveable is that Harley to an "R" version of the bike, which is mechanically identical, but has twin discs up front.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:20 AM   #46
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I ride an "R" version Sportster and the dual front disks work just fine.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:33 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Dodsfall View Post
I ride an "R" version Sportster and the dual front disks work just fine.
Did I say they didn't
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:34 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by guzziguy View Post
Did I say they didn't
I didn't say you said they didn't.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:38 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Dodsfall View Post
I didn't say you said they didn't.
Oh,.
It's just that we're talking about the effectiveness of a single disc.
I think we can take it as read that a dual disc set up is going to work just fine ?
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Old 01-01-2013, 04:50 AM   #50
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Having twin disc upfront opposed to single does not double the cost of maintenance, as you are using each disc half as much :-)
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:56 AM   #51
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"I mean that bike is quite a heavy lump, and whilst it's all very well saying it's a cruiser and not a sports bike, you might still want to haul it up quickly from 70mph one day, and I pity anyone in that situation aboard that bike."

Everyone that rides should know and understand the capabilities of their bike. And, almost all bikes are different so it takes more then one or two short rides to really get to know any of them. It is no more "unforgivable" that Harley puts single disks on the front of some of it's bikes then it is "unforgivable" that some other brands still use disk brakes in 2013. They're just different, that's all, and they require a different skill set from the rider.

One of my bikes weighs a lot more then any Sportster, yet it only has a single disk with a little bitty single caliper, and that of 17+ year old technology as well. No, it will not stop as suddenly as a dual disk bike of the same weight but I've never yet had a problem with that. Why? Because I understand the difference, I know that bike, and I adjust my riding style (usually) so that I survive the ride.
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:05 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason41987 View Post
theres only so much pressure the master cylinder can put on the brakes in total though.... if you disable one, wouldnt it double the pressure that could go to the other?
No, it would actually half the pressure to that caliper, requiring a much harder pull on the lever to get stopping power. The smaller the piston area of the master cylinder the higher the pressure to the slave cylinder piston area (caliper) or the larger the piston area of the master cylinder the lower the pressure to the slave cylinder. If you have a 1 sq in master cylinder squeezing at 1 lb you have produced pressure of 1 psi within the system. If you have two calipers with 1 sq in piston area each you have 2 psi of pressure on the rotors. Remove one rotor and now your 1 psi pressure is only exerting 1 psi on the one 1 sq in caliper. So clearly to gain power one wants either more swept area or more pressure. More pressure can be had with a smaller piston area to make your squeeze higher. 1 pound over 1 sq in = 1 psi, 1/1=1, versus 1 pound over .5 sq in = 2 psi, 1/.5=2. The other way is to get more braking would be through more swept area or larger/more caliper pistons. 1psi times 1 sq in caliper = 1 lb force, 1*1=1, versus 1 psi times 2 calipers of 1 sq in = 2 lb force, 1*(2*1)=2.


Want proof that is really clear? Simply look at a hydraulic jack. Small pump piston, large lift cylinder piston. Better yet if you are a bicyclist, look at a high pressure pump versus an old pump for the balloon tires. The high pressure pump uses a much more slender cylinder and piston to get the high psi modern road bicycles need. The key is to have enough fluid flow and enough "feel" at the lever. It's all about hydraulic leverage and fluid flow.

I personally like really strong brakes, because I do virtually all braking with two fingers, street or dual sport. I've done some work with fluid flow dynamics when we converted the brakes on an 89 GL1500 Wing to work off the lever. To run triple disc brakes the stock single caliper master cylinder just didn't push enough fluid. The power at the end of the lever travel showed some serious power (small piston area relative to the six caliper pistons it had to pressurize), but not enough travel to work. I had to go to a larger master cylinder to get the fluid flow. It had good feel and worked.

Now I've been working on a double disc four piston caliper brake for my streetbike, maybe even have one finger braking. For me it's a combination of power and control. I know I can lock my front brakes, but I don't. I can work them hard while maintaining control. I like having a grip on the bars with my thumb/ring/little fingers while working the brakes with my index/middle fingers. Something I've done for a few decades now. Others may not like that.

The best I've ever used was the double disc set up on an Aprilia SVX550 - truly a one finger front brake set up, but controllable with two. Worst was the single disc set up on my 1975 MotoGuzzi Interceptor 850-T. It was the epitome of a "wooden" brake. It took a HUGE squeeze on the lever to get any braking power. Hindsight now 20/20 I realize it had a double disc reservoir with a single caliper. A simple switch to a smaller bore master cylinder would have gotten the hydraulic leverage in order for good braking - but I was young and ignorant of what was needed, lived with it, and complained about it.

If you do go to a double caliper set up you will likely need to get the master cylinder sized for twin calipers to get enough fluid flow. It doesn't really matter too much what bike it is from. I run a Honda Gold Wing (single caliper from the linked set up from an 83 model) with a caliper from a VF500F on my SR500, works great. But I'm switching to one from a KLX300 this spring. It should work, but should add power with more lever travel. I ended up with the master cylinder because when I "delinked" the brakes on my 83 I got a master cylinder for dual calpers to get the fluid flow.

By the way, you won't just "turn over" a caliper to get it to fit the left side of your bike. The reason for the fork set up was that the 750 used the same fork and I believe the F model had double disc and earlier years had double disc available as an option. If you find a salvage yard that has a 750 with the double caliper set up, get the calipers and the reservoir (or find another reservoir for dual calipers). Perhaps it is possible to swap things up on the calipers to put one on the left, but I don't think so. I think it takes a specific caliper set up. The early/mid 70s Hondas were a bit different with the caliper carriers and I don't think they simply flipflopped.

The upside down thing was when riders would switch up the front fork legs to get the calipers behind the fork leg. They would switch the left and right fork legs, placing the calipers behind the legs. Lots of Kaw Z1 and H2 riders did it. The weight of the calipers didn't affect the steering as much when lower and behind the forks.

If you REALLY want to gain braking power, see if you can fit up a different set of forks with later model calipers or make a mount to fit a later model caliper. I gained a lot of power when I swapped out my old single piston Yamaha brake caliper for a twin piston VF500 caliper even though I was still running a single disc. The SR is a light weight single so that was sufficient. I made the bracked that welded up to a cut off Honda caliper bracket. Better caliper = better braking. The caliper had more swept area at the outer diameter of the rotor, which provided more braking power.



Many bikes from the 70s had 35mm fork stanchion tubes and will fit from one bike to another, clamping in the fork legs, so you could actually pull a later model front end or one with double calipers and put the whole thing on your bike with maybe a few spacers required on the axle to space it for the triple clamp width, but if you get a CB750 set, the spread may be correct.

Now you know more than you ever wanted to know about brakes.
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:23 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Eye_m_no_angel View Post
Everyone that rides should know and understand the capabilities of their bike. And, almost all bikes are different so it takes more then one or two short rides to really get to know any of them. It is no more "unforgivable" that Harley puts single disks on the front of some of it's bikes then it is "unforgivable" that some other brands still use disk brakes in 2013. They're just different, that's all, and they require a different skill set from the rider.

One of my bikes weighs a lot more then any Sportster, yet it only has a single disk with a little bitty single caliper, and that of 17+ year old technology as well. No, it will not stop as suddenly as a dual disk bike of the same weight but I've never yet had a problem with that. Why? Because I understand the difference, I know that bike, and I adjust my riding style (usually) so that I survive the ride.
You simply cannot say that a braking set up is adequate because you learn to adapt to it in every day riding conditions.
The only way you really know how effective your brakes are is when you have to stop quickly, and in a short distance.
Until you have been in that situation, you do not know how good (or bad), your brakes are.
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Old 01-01-2013, 06:54 PM   #54
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Hopefully a rider will practice enough to know just about how fast they can stop at any given speed with the conditions at hand. Hard braking is best not left to wild guesses.
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:04 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Dodsfall View Post
Hopefully a rider will practice enough to know just about how fast they can stop at any given speed with the conditions at hand. Hard braking is best not left to wild guesses.
I agree, but practicing in a safe environment is one thing.
Making a decision in a split second is another entirely.
In some situations, reflexes take over from logical thought processes.
No one can gurantee to get it right every time,
Not even you
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:18 PM   #56
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Nope, there are no guarantees. The odds will favor a rider who practices and becomes somewhat proficient at braking over one who doesn't, however.
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:48 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dodsfall View Post
Nope, there are no guarantees. The odds will favor a rider who practices and becomes somewhat proficient at braking over one who doesn't, however.
As will they favour the rider who has the more effective brakes.
It's all about stopping distances.
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:58 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by guzziguy View Post
I mean that bike is quite a heavy lump
Wait... a Sportster is a "heavy lump"? o_O

The thing only weighs in at around 550lbs, which is a good deal lighter than numerous other bikes that stop just fine within normal use that have single disks up front. (the 1100 Shadows, 1300 VTX's, many Big Twin HD's, ect.)

If you have to apply so much braking force that you NEED the dual brakes, then you are either goin way faster than you should have been, someone pulled out in front of you in such a way that you would not have time to effectively stop, of some combo of the two. In any case, you could be on a CBR with dual 330mm disks and top of the line Brembos, and you'll STILL be screwed in that situation most likely.

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As will they favour the rider who has the more effective brakes.
It's all about stopping distances.
See above. It is about riding within safe limits. If you are riding at ANY reasonably safe speed, the single disk up front will be PLENTY effective.

You, not-so-good Sir, are trying to use technology to replace common sense.

I have seen kids sold on these high performance machines, thinking that because they have the power to go, and the high tech brakes and such that is wonderful on the track, they think they can do anything. All they end up doing is wrecking and if not killed, severely injured.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:18 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Animedevildog View Post


If you have to apply so much braking force that you NEED the dual brakes, then you are either goin way faster than you should have been, someone pulled out in front of you in such a way that you would not have time to effectively stop, of some combo of the two. In any case, you could be on a CBR with dual 330mm disks and top of the line Brembos, and you'll STILL be screwed in that situation most likely..
Oh come on.
Are you really suggesting that you could stop your 883 in the same distance as say, an R1 ?
That's what it's all about.
The difference of a mere car lengths stopping distance can mean the difference between crashing or not.
Having had 35 years experience, I can assure you that the front brake on your 883R is shockingly in effective in an emergency stop situation.
Why do you suppose they offer the same bike with twin discs

I'm guessing you haven't been riding long
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:31 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by guzziguy View Post
Oh come on.
Are you really suggesting that you could stop your 883 in the same distance as say, an R1 ?
That's what it's all about.
The difference of a mere car lengths stopping distance can mean the difference between crashing or not.
Having had 35 years experience, I can assure you that the front brake on your 883R is shockingly in effective in an emergency stop situation.
Why do you suppose they offer the same bike with twin discs

I'm guessing you haven't been riding long
If it were so unsafe for a bike to have a single front disk, do you seriously believe that the manufacturers would be allowed to sell such bikes here in the US, or in the UK, in Europe, or in Japan?

Do you think that any riders out there would actually buy such a bike that was deemed "so unsafe"?

Do you think that the manufacturers would even consider to blatantly continue to manufacture machines that are multi-billion dollar class action suites waiting to happen?

As has been said time and time again, if you ride in ANY reasonably safe manner on the street, then the single disk brakes work just fine, and will stop you safely.

You claim 35 years experience. Thats sad, to be honest that someone with "that much experience" can still have so little common sense. I personally would feel safer around a lot of new riders just out of their basic rider's courses, because just maybe they will have more sense!

As for how long I have been riding... been long enough that I know very well how my HONDA SHADOW handles. Yes, it is not a Harley as you seem to think. Try looking at my avitar, or maybe at my signature. Looks like a Honda Shadow to me, and it says Honda Shadow at the bottom of my posts.

I KNOW that the single disk on my bike is effective, as well as the old fashioned drum brake out back. I have been in a few situations where I had to use the quickly and firmly, and they did the job just fine.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:39 PM   #61
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Follow the two second rule and every bike out there will stop before the car in front of it, even though he hit his brakes first.

R1 or 883 both two seconds behind another vehicle will stop without hitting it.

The R1 may stop in a shorter distance, but that just means he has to watch his mirrors harder to make sure the car behind him doesn't hit him.

Bottom line drive safely and you will be able to stop your ride.
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Old 01-01-2013, 11:59 PM   #62
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As will they favour the rider who has the more effective brakes.
It's all about stopping distances.
The point that's being missed here is that most modern motorcycles without ABS, dual or single brakes, will lock the front wheel at street speeds once the lever is pulled too hard.

All other things being equal, stopping distances have nothing to do with the number of disks if either braking system can go over the wheel-locking threshold.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:03 AM   #63
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All other things being equal, stopping distances have nothing to do with the number of disks if either braking system can go over the wheel-locking threshold.
Following that argument to it's logical conclusion, all bikes of similar size and weight would be able to stop over the same distance with the same rider on board ?
Answer yes or no.
I've been riding since the 80's, and I could lock the wheels on any of the bikes I owned back then, but please don't tell me that the bikes I'm riding nowadays are n ot far far superior to what they used to be then in the braking department.

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Old 01-02-2013, 02:00 AM   #64
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Yes. You could take an old 1980's disk brake setup and attach it to a 2013 model and stop in the same distance, as long as it was working correctly.

Given the same weight, same tires, same suspension, same steering geometry, same tire temperature and same road conditions.

Brake fade could come into play, which is the advantage of having more modern, dual, or larger better-ventilated disks. With normal street riding, brake fade rarely happens unless the rider is going down a mountain or braking an unusually heavy amount.

In a track scenario, where the brakes are being used hard and often, a dual setup with more modern brake cooling setups will help combat brake fade and be more efficient.

In a straight line stopping scenario without overheated brakes the minimum stopping distance is determined almost exclusively by the friction of the tires on the pavement at or near threshold braking. The point at which the rubber meets the road (where the stopping friction does the work of slowing the motorcycle) won't care how the stopping power is applied to the wheel, just that it is applied.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:49 AM   #65
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It's all about the rubber, better rubber better stoping, doesn't matter how many rotors you have.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:24 AM   #66
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Well, this degenerated quickly.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:41 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Critter View Post
Follow the two second rule and every bike out there will stop before the car in front of it, even though he hit his brakes first.

R1 or 883 both two seconds behind another vehicle will stop without hitting it.

The R1 may stop in a shorter distance, but that just means he has to watch his mirrors harder to make sure the car behind him doesn't hit him.

Bottom line drive safely and you will be able to stop your ride.
Trying to bring some common sense and experience to a good argument? WTF?
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:11 PM   #68
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I'd stick with one
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:44 PM   #69
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Yes. You could take an old 1980's disk brake setup and attach it to a 2013 model and stop in the same distance, as long as it was working correctly.
OK then.
I'll ask you a question I asked someone else earlier.
From 60mph in the dry, what distance could you stop in, on a good surface.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:38 PM   #70
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OK then.
I'll ask you a question I asked someone else earlier.
From 60mph in the dry, what distance could you stop in, on a good surface.
I can stop well within the minimum 2-second following distance I am behind a vehicle in front of me, but stop slower than the vehicle behind me.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:41 PM   #71
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I can stop well within the minimum 2-second following distance I am behind a vehicle in front of me, but stop slower than the vehicle behind me.
So what actual distance does that equate too.
Doesn't have to be exact.
Just a rough idea is fine
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:38 PM   #72
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I think I answered that question several posts ago.
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Old 01-02-2013, 09:28 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by guzziguy View Post
Hmmm,
You'll have to remind me because I cannot see anything you've written that addresses this point.
That is, why are twin disc set up's fitted at all, if single discs are just as effective.
http://www.motorcycleforum.com/showp...3&postcount=75

In a nutshell, dual disks and/or more efficient brake setups resist brake fade much better than a standard single disk. Most riders will not use their brakes hard enough with normal street usage to make a difference.

The question is pretty much the same as arguing, "Since engines with 27 horsepower produce enough energy to do highways speeds, why don't all motorcycles have them?"
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Old 01-02-2013, 09:36 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Dodsfall View Post
http://www.motorcycleforum.com/showp...3&postcount=75

In a nutshell, dual disks and/or more efficient brake setups resist brake fade much better than a standard single disk. Most riders will not use their brakes hard enough with normal street usage to make a difference.

The question is pretty much the same as arguing, "Since engines with 27 horsepower produce enough energy to do highways speeds, why don't all motorcycles have them?"
Fine, which brings me back to a question I asked earlier which was, why don't all bikes have a single disc up front.
Forget about pure sports bikes.
Cruisers such as your for example.
If a single disc is going to be just as effective, why do they even bother with a dual disc set when the former is perfectly adequate for everyday road use.
Is it just for show do you think ?

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Originally Posted by Eye_m_no_angel View Post
The difference is in the definition of "adequate" as opposed to "more effective" or "less effective." I never said that singles and duals are equally effective. I said that singles can be perfectly adequate, if you know your bike, and if you adapt your riding style to your bike's limitations.
But you did say

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Originally Posted by Eye_m_no_angel View Post
Then get duals. They definitely stop better.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:11 PM   #75
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Fine, which brings me back to a question I asked earlier which was, why don't all bikes have a single disc up front.
Forget about pure sports bikes.
Cruisers such as your for example.
If a single disc is going to be just as effective, why do they even bother with a dual disc set when the former is perfectly adequate for everyday road use.
Is it just for show do you think ?
I believe I already explained that rhetorically as well. Are you actually reading the replies or just quoting them?


The answer is (drum roll please):

Riders often want more than what is simply adequate for everyday road use. They are even willing to pay extra for things such as higher horsepower engines and more efficient brakes than they will actually use. This creates a demand in the marketplace and through the laws of competition and free-market economics, these things get produced, are available to buy, and are sold to the public.

There you go.
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