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Old 04-23-2012, 12:58 PM   #1
iamjustifyd
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Default Ignition coil?

Bike was running real rough, idling rough, and the front cylinder was running rich, finally cut out completely one day on my way to work. My friend came and towed me after work. Looked at it the next day and it started up with both cylinders running. At first thought it was the fuel pump but not it. Noticed the ignition coil for the front was very hot to the touch while the one for the back was not after a few minutes of being off. Switched them around to check them out. Bike started right up and sounded good which was odd,,if it was the front coil and we switched, shouldn't the back cylinder being acting up? I took the bike home rode around a few days then started running rough and idling rough again. I figured it was the back acting up now. Pulled the plug for the back...looked good. Pulled plug for the front and it's running rich. Not what I expected. Anything that can make the coil for the front run hot..I don't know too much about how it all works. Thanks!
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:16 PM   #2
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On the old Brit bikes a coil running overly hot was the sign of it breaking down. Maybe if you could borrow a pair of coils just to check it out for few days.
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:46 PM   #3
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Did you feel the coils again, after switching them? If a coil is heating from within, it is failing. If it was just getting hot because of where it is located, not a problem. Maybe it runs OK when cool, then starts acting up as the coil gets hotter?
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:33 PM   #4
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After the ride to work this morning both coils are cool to the touch. I'm gonna go over the wiring and see if I can find some loose connection. I'm also wondering about the neutral light. It worked up until all this first started, switched the coils around and the neutral light worked great. Then as the bike started to act up again, the light started to act up again. Kinda in sequence with each other. The bike doesn't act up all the time. Sometimes it backfires a lot, sometimes not. Sometimes it wants to idle high, sometimes not.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:59 PM   #5
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Check your battery connections; a loose or dirty cable can cause many of these symptoms.
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:19 PM   #6
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Sat. I am going thru as much of the wiring as I can, make sure it's all clean and a good connections going on.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:53 PM   #7
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I had the same thing going on with my ninja, it would idle and run fine till it warmed up. I took my coils to a shop to get the checked and found that one was bad. Once it got warm it would crap out on me. Also check to make sure your wires are not going as this was a precursor to my coil crapping out.
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Old 04-28-2012, 11:03 PM   #8
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Cleaned the battery cables well and made sure they were tight. Checked the wiring, what I could get my hands on without opening the harness. Cleaned the connections to the coil. I went online and found a couple of places where it told me how to check the coil. I'm not sure of the technical terms..checked the connections from the wire harness and got 3 OHMS. Now with the plug ends is where I'm messing up something. I take the negative end of my reader to the negative side of the coil and the positive side of the reader to the plug end of the coil...nothing. Not possible or no spark at all right? I still had the coil on the bike, should I have taken it off?
went off of this video..starts at about 4 mins about the coil.
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:15 AM   #9
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If I understand, you measured the resistance from the spark plug cap to one of the other terminals of the coil, and it was open? That usually means the connection between the high voltage wire and the cap has broken. There may still be spark, but it has to jump the gap in the wire before reaching the spark plug. The fix is to remove the high voltage wire from the cap, it should just twist out, trim about 1/4-3/8" from the end of the wire with a very sharp knife, like X-acto or razor, then screw the cap onto the end of the wire. If you look closely at the plastic cap where the wire came out, you should see a spike with what appears to be a spiral thread; there should also be a flexible seal. If the seal is in good shape, it's a good idea to wipe it with silicone dielectric grease, AKA 'ignition grease', before sliding it over the wire. Once the wire it tight in the cap, slide the seal back into place.
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Old 04-29-2012, 03:44 PM   #10
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Of course, the coil could just be bad.
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:47 PM   #11
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I don't think it's the coils. They were switched around after the problem with the front cylinder and the front cylinder is still running rich and the back is fine. I was thinking last night about the plug wires
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Old 05-13-2012, 06:47 PM   #12
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Checked the spark plug wires and they are ok. Is there a way to test what powers the coils? Think I'm gonna try to test the pulse generator also.
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Old 05-13-2012, 11:07 PM   #13
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One side of the coil should get power from the key switch, possibly through the kill switch. The other side goes to the igniter, and would have pulses going to ground as the engine turns over. Know someone with an oscilloscope?
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Old 05-22-2012, 01:33 PM   #14
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If the pulse generator is bad..I haven't checked it yet...would that be throwing both cylinders off or can it just effect one?
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:38 PM   #15
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I don't know the details of your ignition system; there could be one or two pickup coils in with the alternator stator, to provide timing reference(s) to the igniter (commonly, but inaccurately, called the CDI). The igniter could fire both coils at once, or have two, separately timed outputs (single or dual fire). If the igniter is failing, it could affect only one coil, or both.

If we were a bit closer, I have all the tools to figure this out; as it is, I can only guess and suggest. If you know someone into electronics, like a HAM radio operator, that person may be inclined to help, if only to solve an electronic problem.
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Old 05-23-2012, 08:18 AM   #16
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Thanks..guess I'll find out. I tried looking at the wiring diagram but it's really no help on this.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:52 PM   #17
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You said it sometimes acts up, sometimes not. Have you noticed a pattern in how it's acting up, and under what conditions? Also, a bit more info on the bike would help. What is it? Is it carb or injected? Could be a fuel issue unrelated to spark, especially if all the ignition stuff is checking out ok.
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:31 AM   #18
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Been trying to see if it acts up at a certain time..not really. Carbs have been cleaned about 3 months ago with the fuel filter replaced right before that. Now Sat. took a ride to Lafayette, 3 hours there. Yesterday got around the corner and it quit on me. Sounded like it bogged down, like running out of gas but I have gas. It would only start with me on the throttle a bit and as soon as I let off it dies. Fuel pump all this time or the relay? Or maybe something different?
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Old 05-28-2012, 12:11 PM   #19
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I think I am supposed to hear the pump when the key is turned..I don't hear anything. I drained some gas out of one of the carb bowls..if pump is not working would there be any gas in there at all?
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Old 05-28-2012, 03:02 PM   #20
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You would normally hear the pump "prime" the system when you key on, before starting. But that generally applies to fuel injection, which runs at higher line pressure than carbs. Likewise, the majority of bike i've that have carbs are just gravity fed.

Between the indicated rich condition on the plugs you mentioned earlier, and what you just described, it sounds like it's flooding. I would check the needle valves on the carb floats, and the fuel pressure regulator. With an e-pump on carbs, you have to have some way of controlling the amout of fuel going to the carbs, or it'll flood the piss out of it. Either you have a sticking float needle on the (probably) front carb, a blocked return line if you have one, and a shot fuel pressure regulator, in that order.

Some or all of that may not apply, as I have no idea what kind of animal you have, and your's is the first e-pump-and-carb setup i've come across. Then again i've mainly been focusing on sub-liter bikes...
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Old 05-28-2012, 04:09 PM   #21
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If it was flooding shouldn't it have started today? 2005 Honda spirit 750..
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:10 PM   #22
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Ok, so it was saturday that it would start but only run with pat throttle, and today nothing? Or was that all today? Sorry, got mixed up on timeline.

On the shadow, the fuel pump will NOT run with just the key on. Only when startin or running. So no, you won't hear it. The pump gets it's refrence signal from the stator. There's a connector on the stator that's known to fail. If you haven't been having any weird elec issues I wouldn't think on it too much, but something to keep in mind should you really habe to search.

The pumps themselves are a known issue too. Some dieing as early as 20k mi. so it verywell could be that.

In the case of flooding, it depends. If it's a sticking float needle, is could overflow as soon as the bowl is full. Something along the lines of *crank put put put dead...crankcrankcrankcrank...*

Next time you try starting it and it don't, run back to the tail pipes and take a whiff. The diff between not enough gas and way too much should be easy to tell.

Oh, if there's fuel in the carbs but the pump's quit, it should start and run normally till the carbs run dry. Sorry, got out of order. It's hot...
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Old 05-28-2012, 08:28 PM   #23
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Nothing normal about it starting. Don't think it is the fuel pump, if it were, the bike would not start at all even with me giving it a bit of throttle right? When I get it running it smells like a lot of gas, don't know how else to describe it. Thanks for the help! I'll have to check the needle first
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:27 PM   #24
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There shoud also be an "overflow" coming off the carbs. Looks like a facuum or fuel line to nowhere. Make sure that is clear. Ticking basic stuff off the list never hurts. Checking the slide for proper op would be a good one to ckeck while you're in there. Keep the eyes open for odd stuff, things out of place, ect.

Really hoping you get that beastie running soon!
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:50 PM   #25
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The new pattern does seem to indicate it is running out of gas. It could still be the pump 'relay' circuit. You can find out if the pump runs by taking the cable to the starter motor off the starter relay, then try to start normally. Pressing the start button should then only run the pump, and then only until the pressure in the line indicates the carbs are full. If you drain the fuel from the carbs, you can do it again - the pump should only take a few seconds to fill the carbs and shut off. Thing is, the start button bypasses the pump relay circuit; that triggers each time a spark occurs, and stays triggered as long as the spark pulses keep coming. This isn't easy to test, but you should be able to feel the pump run every few seconds while the engine runs, IF you can put your hand on it.
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Old 06-05-2012, 10:32 AM   #26
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Waiting on fuel pump to come in. Hopefully Thurs. or Fri so can get it in Sat. If it doesn't work I'll just shoot the bike and be done with it
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:29 PM   #27
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Ok, I'm getting out the .38!!
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:02 PM   #28
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Drained the bowls so gas is getting to the carbs, still won't crank without me on the gas and when I let the throttle go, it slowly dies. Not much into carbs, can I check for a stuck float without taking carbs off? Take the bowls off without the whole unit? Could this just be the CDI unit? sigh...so much to check.
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:32 PM   #29
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You might be able to check the float level; if you can fit a length of small clear tubing to the drain and curve it up alongside the carb, then open the drain, the fuel will rise to the level in the bowl. My Suzuki manual states what this level should be, relative to the bowl seat. I would expect it to be about 10-15mm below the seat, if your bowl seat is level. On my front carb, the bowl seat is nearly vertical, so the measurement is very different. If it is much lower, you may not be getting fuel to the pilot jet; too high, and it is flooding it.
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Old 06-09-2012, 04:12 PM   #30
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This is weird. I did notice the tube coming from under the tank was off so put it back on..started right up and stayed running. Let it run for a few mins. turned it off. Let it sit for minute, turned the key and it came right back on and idled. While it was idling, I took that hose off but it kept running the same. What is that hose for?
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Old 06-09-2012, 04:19 PM   #31
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Hose is in case you overfill the tank? I'm gonna take it for a little spin and see what it does
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Old 06-09-2012, 05:34 PM   #32
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Ran fine..no problems. The neutral light is even working fine.. I dunno....
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Old 06-09-2012, 05:46 PM   #33
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If the "hose to nowhere" is coming off the carbs, it's the carb vent/overflow. The float bowls have to have a "vent" to atmosphere so the fuel level can rise/fall wothout fighting pressure/vacuum. Plugged vent tube can cause issues.

If it's coming off the tank, I have no idea. Might be wise to pick animedevildog's brain on this one. Lol.
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:08 PM   #34
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That hose you are talking about off the carbs...I can't find it. It used to be right there, I could see it easy and I always wondered what it was for. Carbs were cleaned and I couldn't find it today, I poked around some but prolly gotta take the tank off to see it. Maybe it was tucked in somewhere
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:20 PM   #35
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O.o Odd. Should be 2 small hoses from the carbs, the t-fitting, then hose going down to nothing. I'd make sure that whoever sirviced your carbs didn't cap something in that chain, and that the vent hose isn't wadded/kinked up in there. Those carbs gotta breathe or you'll get all sorts of drivability probs.
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Old 06-09-2012, 08:30 PM   #36
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It could be many things - some bikes have a small vacuum line to a boost sensor, which shifts the timing with changes in vacuum. It could be a vacuum line to the fuel valve, which shuts off if no vacuum is present. I'd need a good manual to figure that out.
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Old 06-12-2012, 03:50 PM   #37
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I haven't been following this thread all the way through, but I happen to be working on a Shadow right now in the garage with fuel issues. (2004 VT600CD) This bike has a manual petcock, and also a vacuum controlled petcock mounted separately. In the diagram for yours (http://www.westernhillshondayamaha.c...ion_detail.asp), it looks like the same kind of vacuum controlled petcock unit may be attached directly behind the manual petcock. On the 600 I have here, I dismantled the vacuum controlled petcock and found a diaphram worn all the way through, making her issue oviosu and I am only waiting for parts now.

Have you checked your vacuum c*ck? On this bike there is a smallish tube running from the diaphram unit to the intake side of the carb providing the vacuum required to work the diaphram and pass the fuel on to the carb. Could that loose tube you mentioned be the vacuum tube to the vacuum operated c*ck?

Good luck,

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Old 06-12-2012, 04:12 PM   #38
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I haven't checked the petcock yet. Should have, don't know why I didn't. It is running now but same as before, like in the first post. I'll look at it more this weekend, homework is kicking my butt this week.
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:38 PM   #39
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Sorry, I looke dup VT750C and it does not have a fuel pump. I just now discovered the VT750DC (microfiche shows VTDCA and VT750DCB, which is yours?) and they do not show that vacuum c*ck.
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:44 PM   #40
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VT750DCA AND DCB are the same except for the paint job. I have (B)
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