A good touring dual sport [Archive]

rldguy

10-23-2008, 12:22 PM

I am interested in doing some semi-long distance touring with my wife on the pillion, but my bike won't cut it. I have looked around and I don't like the look of the big touring machines at all, but I really like the look of some of the dual sports, particularly the Suzuki DL1000 V-Strom and the BMW F800 GS. I guess I would rather have the trimmer look and feel than the creature comforts of the Goldwing class bikes. Of course, it has to have a comfortable stock seat )or have a good aftermarket seat available), but the rest of the comforts I can live without. My riding will be primarily on asphalt, with occasional jaunts off-road if we see something interesting. Definitely not anything too rough - probably fire roads at most. I would like something that would be fun in curves, but I tend to drive fairly conservatively so I don't need anything too rambunctious. Would the DL1000 or F800 GS fit the bill? I would also be interested in other suggestions.

kschilk

10-24-2008, 02:08 PM

Check out the Kawasaki KLR650.

rldguy

10-24-2008, 02:22 PM

The KLR650 is a nice bike, but from what I have read it isn't very good at riding 2-up.

North

10-25-2008, 02:14 AM

Check out the Kawasaki KLR650.

Best Bike for the Money. But riding with a pillion, I would want a bigger bike too. having said that, if you want something bigger and better than you are looking at a 1000V-Strom, 800GS, 1200GS BMW or a KTM 950 or 990 adventure.

I don't know about the 800GS or V-Strom but I would not take my 1200GS were I have seen guys go on a KLR650. I think that the best big dualsport bike for off-road is the KTM.

I guess it depends on what level dualsport you are into.

rldguy

10-25-2008, 10:30 AM

I guess it depends on what level dualsport you are into.
Well, here is the dilemma: I like the idea of having my feet under me instead of in front of me (I feel like I have more control that way), so the cruisers are out. I don't want to lay down on the bike, so the sport bikes are out. I want my wife on the back and to be somewhat comfortable on a long trip, so the SV650's of the world are out. It seems like the dual sport is the bike that fits all of my requirements, but my intent is not to use the bike off-road a lot. Suppose I am on a 2500 mile trip on asphalt. If I see some interesting scenery, I want to go into it and look around and I would like the bike to be able to get me there. I am not a hardcore adventure guy so the bike will probably never have to make water crossings, climb steep inclines or pick its way through boulders and downed trees. That stuff is pretty cool, but it just isn't me.

North

10-26-2008, 01:16 AM

Well, here is the dilemma: I like the idea of having my feet under me instead of in front of me (I feel like I have more control that way), so the cruisers are out. I don't want to lay down on the bike, so the sport bikes are out. I want my wife on the back and to be somewhat comfortable on a long trip, so the SV650's of the world are out. It seems like the dual sport is the bike that fits all of my requirements, but my intent is not to use the bike off-road a lot. Suppose I am on a 2500 mile trip on asphalt. If I see some interesting scenery, I want to go into it and look around and I would like the bike to be able to get me there. I am not a hardcore adventure guy so the bike will probably never have to make water crossings, climb steep inclines or pick its way through boulders and downed trees. That stuff is pretty cool, but it just isn't me.

Sounds like the 1000 V-strom might be the best bang for your money. But, the best thing is to test ride them all and see what you like in your price range. And have you wife sit on the bikes and go for a ride too.

rldguy

10-26-2008, 10:20 AM

Thanks North, it looks like that will be my best bet. I am thinking new rather than used. You never know what kind of abuse a dual sport took from the previous owner. There aren't many listed around here anyway. I don't see many out, so I am not surprised.

kschilk

10-26-2008, 11:21 AM

Pulling from a new thread here....check out the new Triumph 900 Scrambler. For the kind of riding you're talking about, I'd say this bike fits the bill perfectly. It's not a dual-sport, per se but back in the day, before production dirt bikes were common, stripped-down scramblers were what we ran.

rldguy

10-26-2008, 04:38 PM

I hadn't seen the Scrambler, but I looked it up after you suggested it. It's a nice looking bike and, from the little bit I read, it sounds like it fits the bill for what I want. The only problem is the exhaust runs right under the passenger's leg. I didn't notice, but my wife mentioned it about 20 seconds after I showed her the picture. I guess what you notice first depend on where you are sitting. Does anybody have any experience with this bike that can shed some light on how well the heat shield works?

67fire

10-26-2008, 05:04 PM

A great friend of mine has the 990 KTM Adventurer Dakar.
He rides it EVERYWHERE! With his wife attached!
He has been riding for over 45 years and has owned several models along the way.
He was looking for a Great Street Bike for the twisty's and an occasional trip Off-Road.
Best wishes on a Bike that Fits You.

kschilk

10-26-2008, 06:54 PM

Here is an excerpt from a Cycle World test, the link is below.

"Most visible are the high side-pipes and mufflers, now on the right side of the bike. Late-Sixties Trophys had their ethereally beautiful pipes on the left, which I always thought was a shame because you couldn't see them very well when the bike was on its sidestand. But now the pipes are on the “garage viewing” side. Good idea. They aren't as clean and flowing as the old 650 pipes, but the heat shielding is much better, and passengers are no longer doomed to have their inner shins branded for life. This used to be the proud mark of the Triumph owner's girlfriend, as the woman who reluctantly became my wife will tell you."

http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=98

rldguy

10-26-2008, 06:57 PM

kschilk: That is the review I saw. I was hoping for some real world experience, but that review should at least get my wife into the dealership.

BH121869

12-19-2008, 10:42 PM

Well, here is the dilemma: I like the idea of having my feet under me instead of in front of me (I feel like I have more control that way), so the cruisers are out. I don't want to lay down on the bike, so the sport bikes are out. I want my wife on the back and to be somewhat comfortable on a long trip, so the SV650's of the world are out. It seems like the dual sport is the bike that fits all of my requirements, but my intent is not to use the bike off-road a lot. Suppose I am on a 2500 mile trip on asphalt. If I see some interesting scenery, I want to go into it and look around and I would like the bike to be able to get me there. I am not a hardcore adventure guy so the bike will probably never have to make water crossings, climb steep inclines or pick its way through boulders and downed trees. That stuff is pretty cool, but it just isn't me.
For this you do not need a duel type bike. I've ridden the Triumph Bonneville fast on dirt roads and done a little hill climbing on several too. Not saying buy that one but any comfortable under 550lb bike would do for you. I like my buell XT but there are many good bikes out there. I wouldn't go for the Scrambler Triumph has out. I like it as a copy of an old cool bike and it is comfy, I love those seats but not set up to carry odds and ends that the wife will want to take. I almost got the Kaw 650 Versy, may have spelled that wrong, with side hard bags and rear trunk.

pterry

12-20-2008, 05:49 PM

The bmw's still might fit the bill. Expensive though.

PiJiL

12-20-2008, 06:23 PM

A mate of mine just traded one of his GSX-R's on the 650 VStrom...............

I thought he was nuts :eek: but f#ck me arent they a great boike :p

Better that the 1000cc version........... i know is weird but you can go places on the 650 the 1000 will never get you, less fuel, same tank size and a list of aftermarket parts that will blow your socks off...

For the two up, the F800 is the machine cos of the air suspension............ worth the xtra bucks IMHO............

I am getting the KTM 690 enduro cos od the extra power and off roadieness.........

http://www.reverendbiker.com/vstrom/comparison.htm

phoenixfire

12-25-2008, 12:20 PM

iamgumby

12-25-2008, 09:13 PM

Why under a liter?

Check out a Bandit 1200S; or the newer 1250. Upright. Solid. No frills. Capable. Dependable. Affordable. Not for off-road, particularly.

PiJiL

12-27-2008, 07:18 AM

Giant81

02-03-2009, 03:38 PM

I've never ridden one but I've hard the Vstrom's beat out the BMW's.

I read a review where the rider bought the vstrom as a daily driver instead of putting the milage on his BMW, which he kept for more weekend leisure trips. Eventually he traded in the BMW when he found he just rode the vstrom all the time.

I'm looking at a 650, let me know if you get one, how you like it.

artyboy

02-09-2009, 10:06 AM

I've got a Virago 750. I put about 5000 miles on it last summer and quite a bit of that was dirt, gravel and fire roads. I had no trouble getting wherever I felt like going. If you go that route then you'll want to get a more comfortable seat for your passenger. The pilot seat is great but I got complaints after about 20 minutes from everyone that I took out with me because of the rear seat. A big engine on a motorcycle is pretty pointless if you're operating at legal speeds.

Giant81

02-13-2009, 09:28 AM

No, but engine size does come into play when at highway speeds. Your ability to accelerate into traffic, merge, or pass is dependent on power/weight ratio.

Not to mention that accelerating past a hazard can be as effective in certain situations as braking. There for the ability to quickly get out of the way is influenced again, partly by power/weight ratio.

With that said though, I've never heard anyone say the 650-750 sport tourers were underpowered.

edog200

02-18-2009, 06:52 AM

Great bullet proof reliable engine that can sit at a 120 ks all day,
long legs of suspension
great pannier mounts
well appointed.

Finally, and most importantly, comfortable.

madadder

02-20-2009, 11:19 PM

Dr650

Mike R.

04-04-2009, 05:04 PM

Sat on a Kawasaki versey, I like it alot.

Tellico-Camper

04-06-2009, 09:31 AM

I can suggest that you DON'T buy a DRZ 400s for any distance more that a couple hundred miles. I ride with a lot of different bikes and it seems the folks that ride two up and do the easy gravel roads adventure riding seem to enjoy the Stom's. The general opinions I get is that the bike offers the best bang for the buck. The KLR is a great if you tend to only have a passenger once and a while and enjoy the more adventurous moderate riding. I call them the adventure pack mules of the bunch. As the saying goes opinions are like AS_ holes and everyone has one. If you are anything like the Adventure riding demographic I see, it really won't matter because whatever bike you choose will be great until you see something else you want...HAHAHA!:D

rldguy

04-06-2009, 12:12 PM

If you are anything like the Adventure riding demographic I see, it really won't matter because whatever bike you choose will be great until you see something else you want...HAHAHA!:D
I think that applies to almost all riders and all styles of bike.

PiJiL

04-06-2009, 06:44 PM

I can suggest that you DON'T buy a DRZ 400s for any distance more that a couple hundred miles.

Bull****, the good old DRZ400 will go across australia 3 times before anything goes wrong............

My best man has had two of them, in road trim, across australia twice, the second he motarded with RM forks and it was awsome to see him out cornering the dicks on r1's at the track...........

Did not do so well on the straits with 45 hp :D

I test rode had the Katoom 690 for a day, what a bucket of puss off road, (my 06 Fireblade would do better on the dirt), needs suspension mods and some decent bars.............

The strom is cheaper, goes better and is more comfy :p

Chuck289

04-07-2009, 12:42 AM

Bull****, the good old DRZ400 will go across australia 3 times before anything goes wrong............

My best man has had two of them, in road trim, across australia twice, the second he motarded with RM forks and it was awsome to see him out cornering the dicks on r1's at the track...........

Did not do so well on the straits with 45 hp :D

I test rode had the Katoom 690 for a day, what a bucket of puss off road, (my 06 Fireblade would do better on the dirt), needs suspension mods and some decent bars.............

The strom is cheaper, goes better and is more comfy :p

Dont get me wrong, I think the DRZ400 is an awesome bike, ive seen the serious use and abuse people put those bikes through and they just keep ticking. I'd like to have one someday.
But I think for riding 2-up on american highways at 70mph for long distances, its not the best for that.
I still want one, I wouldnt feel like carrying passengers. Get your own dam bike :D

PiJiL

04-07-2009, 04:46 AM

Get your own dam bike :D

precisely..................:D

AlphaZed

04-14-2009, 11:08 PM

Check out the Kawasaki KLR650.

Agree! The KLR650 is a great bike if your "dual sporting" is more street centric than dirt!

I ride a KLX400 (DRZ400) and can't hang with the KLR's on straights, sweepers and other wide open pavement, but my KLX does amazing well in the twisties, even with knobbies! And in the dirt, the KLX400 is a MUCH better platform!

gabor

04-29-2009, 02:16 PM

semi-long distance touring with my wife on the pillion... My riding will be primarily on asphalt, with occasional jaunts off-road ...Definitely not anything too rough - probably fire roads at most. ....something that would be fun in curves, .....I don't need anything too rambunctious.

The BMW R 1200GS is made for you. Since my wife and I run a motorcycle in Arizona we have quite extensive experience not only with the bikes but also in bike-rider context. Throughout the years of operation our clients logged hundreds of thousands of miles on the GS, touring solo and two-up in a wide array of riding circumstances. In addition to that, if my wife and I have a chance to go riding we always take the GS, for exactly the same purpose you've listed. Earlier we had several V-Stroms in the fleet as well. I can say only good things about them, they performed absolutely great. I personally prefer the suspension, the shaft drive and some other features of the GS.
Gabor
@AZride.com

AlphaZed

04-29-2009, 03:09 PM

The BMW R 1200GS is made for you. Since my wife and I run a motorcycle in Arizona we have quite extensive experience not only with the bikes but also in bike-rider context. Throughout the years of operation our clients logged hundreds of thousands of miles on the GS, touring solo and two-up in a wide array of riding circumstances. In addition to that, if my wife and I have a chance to go riding we always take the GS, for exactly the same purpose you've listed. Earlier we had several V-Stroms in the fleet as well. I can say only good things about them, they performed absolutely great. I personally prefer the suspension, the shaft drive and some other features of the GS.
Gabor
@AZride.com

I've ridden with a few GS 1200's and although I agree they're good on the street and for two-up, I feel they're downright dangerous in the dirt! The GS is a VERRRRY heavy motorcycle and extreme weight and dirt riding should not be used in the same sentence!

Case in point: A female friend I ride with, on a slightly bumpy fire road, crashed hers on a couple of bumps I believe a 2-wheel drive car could have gotten by. She was not going very fast and probably could of saved it simply by applying throttle, but for whatever reason she didn't.

She told me after the fact, that she was actually going too slow and when the bike started to lean, she simply couldn't hold it up with her leg. Then, adding insult to injury, she could not pick the bike up by herself! (This woman, btw, is a 5'9" and is quite strong!)

Her opinion, after the ride was: She had no business on a 1200GS in the dirt! She loves the bike on the street, but she felt it was entirely the wrong bike for the dirt!

I've ridden with a few other 1200GS's and their riders seem to concur with my female friend. Their assessments are: unless the "dirt" is a relatively flat dirt ROAD, the GS is not the right tool for the job.

rldguy

04-30-2009, 08:20 AM

I went to the dealer and sat on the VStrom 1000. It was considerably higher than what I am riding now (1981 Maxim 650), but I can live with that. What surprised me was how much "stuff" was in front of me. On the Maxim, there isn't much between me and the front wheel, but the VStrom felt like it was a mile wide. I rode my bike to the dealer so it was a pretty big change climbing on the VStrom. I assume you get used to having the fairing and the wide tank up front.

Durangoman

05-03-2009, 03:25 PM

Would the DL1000 or F800 GS fit the bill? I would also be interested in other suggestions.

Yes they would. So would my Aprilia Caponord, I'd rather have it than other 'travel enduros'.

AlphaZed

05-03-2009, 04:17 PM

Dont get me wrong, I think the DRZ400 is an awesome bike, ive seen the serious use and abuse people put those bikes through and they just keep ticking. I'd like to have one someday.
But I think for riding 2-up on american highways at 70mph for long distances, its not the best for that.
I still want one, I wouldnt feel like carrying passengers. Get your own dam bike :D

I think our nomenclature is a little screwed-up. "Dual Sport" typically refers to 650 cc bikes and less, that are pretty much dirt centric with lights. Bikes like the DRZ400/KLX400, XR650, KTM 690 and others are true "Dual Sports."

I think what RidGuy is really looking for is an ADVENTURE TOURER. These are the BMW GS's, DL1000's, KTM 990's and so forth. These bikes are WAAAY more street centric, but can handle some dirt use.

The Dual Sport rides I do on my KLX400; an Adventure Tourer would be left dead, turning around and headed back, or crashed in a gully within the first 10 miles of the ride. Conversely, if I to tried hang with Adventure Tourers on fast paved sweepers, straights or even fast dirt roads, I'd be the one headed back home.

Anyway, we're talkin' apples and oranges here...

kaempfer0080

05-15-2009, 12:40 AM

Are the GS 1200 adventures really that bad in the dirt? I was considering looking into one but not if they cant handle dirt roads.

AlphaZed

05-15-2009, 01:08 AM

Are the GS 1200 adventures really that bad in the dirt? I was considering looking into one but not if they cant handle dirt roads.

They're fine on dirt roads, but a 500LB motorcycle on tight, slick, gnarly trails is probably a bad idea.

Personally, I would not want to take such a large bike to the places I ride. I can envision really bad things...

kaempfer0080

05-15-2009, 01:36 AM

Ah okay, I guess I read into it too much. Makes sense though, it's a big ass bike.

desertlife

06-22-2009, 10:11 PM

Kawasaki KLR 650 is nice.

67fire

06-22-2009, 10:20 PM

My best buddy rides a KTM 690 Adventurer... EVERYWHERE!
Not the best bike for off-roading, but trail riding and street riding, it fits the bill nicely! He takes it every time that we go camping. It easily will carry two people way over posted speeds.
Honda make an XL650R that is street legal and geared more for the street than dirt. (both bikes listed have electric start.)

Eric

FictionalCharacter

06-26-2009, 01:02 PM

so, wait, is there actually something of a consensus that a v-strom (either one) is suitable for two up light sport touring?

AlphaZed

06-26-2009, 01:56 PM

so, wait, is there actually something of a consensus that a v-strom (either one) is suitable for two up light sport touring?

For SPORT TOURING, either V-strom is a good mount.

But this thread started asking a about a good DUAL SPORT bike. In that case, neither V-Strom is any good!!! They're WAAAY too heavy!!! (And I've got a friend walking around on crutches that will attest to that!)

Hydra Sports

07-22-2009, 07:14 PM

I agree, a KLR650 is a great bike. I have a KLR250 and if I was to spend more time on the highway I would go with the 650. The 250 is perfect for me due to just driving it enough to go to the woods.

herm

07-22-2009, 09:44 PM

The BMW GS is a great sport tourer, with a great seating postion. I think it is good on hard packed dirt or gravel roads, but definitely not a dirt bike.
The stock seats are very uncomfortable though.
The Triumph Tiger is a good bike too.

royce242

08-25-2009, 01:46 PM

Check out the Kawasaki KLR650.

Yeah thats a nice one

67fire

08-25-2009, 10:19 PM

A friend of mine has a KTM Adventurer 990 that he takes EVERYWHERE!
He is always planning his next trip on unknown roads dirt, some pavement, whatever. He has logged over 15,000 miles this year so far.
I just got back from his house as he had just pulled in from another one! We went straight to the computer so that he could show me the next undiscovered roads.
I would say that he has the perfect bike for what he does and it runs very, very well in the twisties on pavement.

Eric

SOG

09-25-2009, 09:16 PM

Well, here is the dilemma: I like the idea of having my feet under me instead of in front of me (I feel like I have more control that way), so the cruisers are out. I don't want to lay down on the bike, so the sport bikes are out. I want my wife on the back and to be somewhat comfortable on a long trip, so the SV650's of the world are out. It seems like the dual sport is the bike that fits all of my requirements, but my intent is not to use the bike off-road a lot. Suppose I am on a 2500 mile trip on asphalt. If I see some interesting scenery, I want to go into it and look around and I would like the bike to be able to get me there. I am not a hardcore adventure guy so the bike will probably never have to make water crossings, climb steep inclines or pick its way through boulders and downed trees. That stuff is pretty cool, but it just isn't me.

Actually Crossing water aren't not so hard... I believe what a dirt bike can do you can pretty much do it with a dual sport... when the water is so deep a dual-sport is unable to cross, I doubt if a dirt bike can cross... because at some point the engine will flood with water anyway...

With two people, you won't be able to do much hardcore off-road (like what you do with a dirt bike.. flying around...) stuff anyway... but certainly can do some light off-road stuff, like driving on a trail.

igotonetoo

11-09-2009, 08:00 AM

I ride my VEE every where with a saddle change you can't beat this bike! It will do what ever you want it to do. Check out Strom troopers web site for as much info as you want. Most of us love our Stroms. I have be a rider for fifty yrs this bike brought it back again. can't say enough about it :71baldboy:

rldguy

11-09-2009, 10:30 AM

igotonetoo

11-09-2009, 04:14 PM

5'10"----200lbs

rldguy

11-09-2009, 05:03 PM

I found the V-Strom to be quite tall for my 5'11 frame. Do you have any issues with the height?

igotonetoo

11-10-2009, 07:27 AM

if you find it to be a issue you can lower it.They offer longer struts after market for the rear suspension and you can drop the forks around an inch in the trees. I have a 30" inseam and left mine as is, I'm fine with it. also you can put the wee seat on it and drop the seat height another inch.
loads of information on the bike on Stromtroopers web site ----John :)

bwelsh234

01-28-2010, 06:22 PM

I'm in the same situation. I want to 'lean' away from the all sport bike and move over to a sport / touring bike.

I'm looking for something under a liter that's sporty.

From the touring bike owners I've talked to I've gotten recommendations for the BMW 800 GS and VFR 800.

My Dad's also in a similar situation. He moved to AZ and left his K75 behind because his AZ house is 4.5 miles from the nearest paved road. He'll be happy to hear that there might be a BMW that's right for him out there. Here in the NJ/PA area where he used to live, BMW dealers are hard to find so that might be a factor in your decision.

bulpinn

01-29-2010, 01:45 PM

Nobody's mentioned the original Dual purpose bike,
YAMAHA'S TDM 850 & 900.
Suprisingly quick on the tarmac and not too shabby off road.
See the ADV rders in Aus.

BE11WOOD

02-22-2010, 12:46 PM

ktm seem be well praised by all that own them buddy

flo

08-29-2012, 04:35 AM

Are the GS 1200 adventures really that bad in the dirt? I was considering looking into one but not if they cant handle dirt roads.

The BMW are useless in the dirt. Here in Namibia we have got a lot of dirt roads
and go riding a lot. Even my Africa Twin with a 21 inch front wheel was useless if the roads get bad. Light singles with 21 inch wheels are the only way to go. Try a 19 inch wheel in thick sand and u will know what i am talking about. The best of the twins is the KTM 990 , but still very heavy.

Firemanjeff

11-26-2012, 06:57 PM

I love the Honda NC700 I am gonna buy one I am concerned with my size 6ft tall 290lbs love the bike though my wife says I will look dumb

andrew.box

01-19-2013, 11:29 AM

I just got a 2001 BMW f650gs that I plan to ride across the country later this summer. I will certainly report how it goes! I was eying dual sports and ST bikes and finally settled on a dual sport. Will be a long trip on a thumper though. Some of the other bikes mentioned may fit your needs better.

markk53

01-20-2013, 01:02 PM

I looked at the date on the original post, kind of old.

Observation, most here are not talking dual sport (dirt based street legal) most are talking adventure bike (street bike with minor dirt capabilities). Now understand that there are those who push the limits taking adventure bikes on single track difficult trails, heck there was a Youtube video where some rider did pretty much that with a GSXR, but that does not make an adventure bike the same as a dual sport. In the same vein there are dual sport riders who ride their dual sport cross country, sticking everything but the kitchen sink (and I'm not sure that hasn't been done) on their light weight singles. That doesn't make them a touring bike. I've also read a lot about subframes breaking and complaints about numerous other things.

It is about getting the right bike regardless of the genre, I just tend to want to straighten out the use of the terms a bit.

perkinsblair

01-30-2013, 07:50 AM

Have you tried out dirt bikes. They are one category of bikes which never lets one down. They are effective for varied road applications and their dirt exhaust systems are just what every biker would love to have their bikes fitted with. Have a trial of them..

NotSoLi'lIndian

01-31-2013, 06:12 PM

VStrom 650 pilot here. 6'3", 270 pounds. 80% asphalt/20% gravel & dirt. Have Russell Day-long seat upgrade, Pelican hardbags, VStream windshield, etc. VERY comfortable and great for long-distance touring. Check out stromtrooper.com for more info.

markk53

02-02-2013, 09:16 AM

Again, for clarificaton - adventure bikes. Big street type engine with long travel suspension on virtually street bike chassis.

Even the current Dakar bikes are now limited to 450cc. Not sure if it is singles.

I know it's picky terminology, but a dual sport is essentially a light single off road set up with street legal lighting and necessary equipment. They're capable to run single track paths in challenging off road riding with a decent set of knobbies.

Adventure bikes are usually significantly bigger multi-cylinder bikes weighing a lot more. They can be run off the beaten path, but are a serious challenge to try to run what an average dual sport single can.

The OP back in the day is asking more about an adventure bike for touring, which BMW has made a fortune building in their GS models. Suzuki does it with the V-Strom, now Yamaha is doing with their Tenari (however it's spelled). They are great touring bikes with some reasonable dirt/gravel capability while providing comfort when on the superslab. But not so much for the tight single track riding done in a lot of woods riding.

One side note, a friend runs AMA dual sport rides. He told me they are essentially untimed rides over the same trails as an Enduro is run. He said even the present Japanese dual sports are nearly not capable of doing the run, a competitive dual sport rider usually is riding a converted enduro. He said if I was interested in the runs, the AMA adventure bike run was a better choice, cutting out the roughest of sections and adding some road riding on semi-improved roads along with dirt/gravel. That kind of hints at what the AMA sees as dual sport and adventure.