Low Speed Practice: the #1 Benefit...

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Here's the deal, we often encourage riders to go into the parking lot and practice their skill in a lower speed, more controlled environment. (By "we" I mean experienced riders, Rider Coaches, and other safety professionals). We encourage practicing "Emergency Braking", "Swerving" "Clutch and Throttle Controls", and "Looking Well Ahead".

But in my opinion we never talk about what I believe is the #1 benefit: learning not to grab the front brake or make sudden violent inputs.

Here is my professional opinion--IF you are in a parking lot doing an offset weave and things aren't going well? Grabbing a massive handful of front brake can put you on the ground in a second, or at least stop you off balance and put a foot down to keep the bike up. These are not good habits but at 4mph they are not killing problems. As you run through that offset cone weave and grab a big handful your brain says, "Woof, that didn't work...don't grab that front brake right away."

From our cars we bring a habit of always hitting the brakes if things go wrong. On a bike at speed an instant panicked braking reaction, especially a violent over-braking, can be catastrophic. During low speed practice? Not so dangerous.

Think back to those low speed maneuvers, yamming on the brakes unsettles the bike, causes you to lose control and potentially fall--that never changes at speed. If you're going 10mph or 100mph a sudden, violent, panicked braking can end up badly. Experienced riders know that there are situations where you "ride it out" and frankly, doing nothing is the best reaction you can have. Low speed maneuvers help teach riders patience and helps keep them from making inappropriate inputs.

The other skills? Eyes up, friction zone, good braking habits, countersteering to swerve? GREAT STUFF but the bottom line for me is that PLP will help you learn to stay calm in a tight spot by teaching you what NOT to do.

PLP will help you to be smooth and smooth is good.

My professional 2 cents.

[motorcyclist]

Thank's for these informative post's they are a great source of experience for the new rider,myself included.

This is exactly what i've done in my MSF exercise,grabbed to much front brake .In my case I had my wheel cocked slightly to the right because the exercise was to speed up,anticipate getting a swerve right or left signal,or getting a panic stop signal.When I got the panic stop signal I grabbed a handfull of front brake and went down like a ton of bricks,it happened so fast.
I have so much respect for the front brake now,I just learn to squeeze gently at stops .

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Thank's for these informative post's they are a great source of experience for the new rider,myself included.

This is exactly what i've done in my MSF exercise,grabbed to much front brake .In my case I had my wheel cocked slightly to the right because the exercise was to speed up,anticipate getting a swerve right or left signal,or getting a panic stop signal.When I got the panic stop signal I grabbed a handfull of front brake and went down like a ton of bricks,it happened so fast.
I have so much respect for the front brake now,I just learn to squeeze gently at stops .

This is one of the reason that during training the MSF and others teach not to cover the front brake--to avoid a panicked grab. Later, when you are more experienced, covering the brake in traffic is actually encouraged.

[JBorg]

I have a question related to this.
If you're slowing (<5mph) for a sharp right and you suddenly find the need to stop, what would be the best way to do this w/o front brake. I'm thinking rear would be out of the question since you're leaning to the right.
I take the bike to the store several times a week and this kind of thing comes up! It's my crowded parking lot practice.

[Dodsfall]

I have a question related to this.
If you're slowing (<5mph) for a sharp right and you suddenly find the need to stop, what would be the best way to do this w/o front brake. I'm thinking rear would be out of the question since you're leaning to the right.
I take the bike to the store several times a week and this kind of thing comes up! It's my crowded parking lot practice.

The best solution is to never spike either brake to stop. Panic stopping while the bike is leaned or forks unaligned with the frame will put you to the pavement. Straighten up the bike and stop normally. Being prepared to stop ahead of time if the situation calls for it is a valuable riding skill. (You did leave room for this just in case, right?)

There are times when things will surprise a rider, but as you gain experience you will find that these begin to happen less and less. It's not that the situations magically stop occurring, it's that we learn to anticipate and react early to them to a greater degree.

I may get chided for mentioning this secret, but you actually can use the front brake in a turn. Very Gently. It should only be done to slow or stop in a non-panic situation where the rider is absolutely sure of a high level of control and has the experience to judge how much brake to use. Again, if you aren't confident on the brakes yet, leave it alone for now. It's a good thing to play with once the rest gets easier.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

I may get chided for mentioning this secret, but you actually can use the front brake in a turn. Very Gently. It should only be done to slow or stop in a non-panic situation where the rider is absolutely sure of a high level of control and has the experience to judge how much brake to use. Again, if you aren't confident on the brakes yet, leave it alone for now. It's a good thing to play with once the rest gets easier.

No, you actually point out one of the real troubling conversations we have in motorcycling--how do you help people understand you CAN brake in a turn but doing it wrong can be deadly? In low speed stuff I'm a rear brake guy, it allows you to slow the bike without tensing up your grip on the bars--often when you apply the front brake you also make unintended steering inputs or at least tense up and make steering more difficult.

Braking in a turn absolutely is an advanced skill. However, you can't get good at anything without some practice. The MSF used to have an exercise where you would ride a curved path, then gently brake, as you braked the bike slows, you let it come upright and then can apply more brake. It's not hard to do but you want to practice it easy and relaxed.

[LWRider]

The MSF used to have an exercise where you would ride a curved path, then gently brake, as you braked the bike slows, you let it come upright and then can apply more brake. It's not hard to do but you want to practice it easy and relaxed.

They use that exercise down here. They have a wide sweeper marked off and ask you to get up to above 20mph. enter the curve, and in the middle of the curve to apply brakes and straighten up the bike. They time it also.

Cheers,

Mike

[beginner]

For me the #1 benefit of PLP is improving balance on the bike at all speeds. One of the situations where balance is relevent at high speed is braking.

Turning a car during hard braking reduces traction for stopping, can lead to a skid in the front, and loss of control. If that happens with a motorcycle the skid can end in a drop. A moving bike is always changing lean angle. Lean angle changes have to be corrected to keep the bike from falling. The earlier a lean angle change is detected by the rider the smaller the steering correction needs to be and less traction is given up. In hard braking that can mean the difference between a successful stop and loss of control.

On a straight path, above a reletively slow speed, a bike tends to be self stabilizing, it steers itself, so riders don't need to pay close attention to those small lean angle changes. In a hard braking situation when most of the available traction is being used for stopping a reletively small steering input can cause a skid. One way, perhaps the best way, to learn to feel and respond to very small lean angle changes going straight, is slow ride practice. At the slowest speeds the gyroscopic force (precesion), that steers the front wheel in the direction the bike is leaning, isn't effective. To keep the bike standing in that situation the rider has to learn to feel those very small changes and make corrections to keep the bike from leaning too far.

An exercise I got from a motor policeman, that tests balance skills during braking, is to stop hard enough (from a reletively slow speed) to compress the forks, then get a backwards roll when the brakes are released, then proceed without putting a foot down. The balance skills that allow that mean steering corrections are minimized meaning less chance of a steering induced skid and loss of control during hard braking.

[Dodsfall]

The balance skills that allow that mean steering corrections are minimized meaning less chance of a steering induced skid and loss of control during hard braking.

I really don't see the correlation between emergency braking and balancing the bike at slow speeds. They are two entirely different animals. Saying that practicing keeping the feet on the pegs at a stop will prepare a rider for emergency stops is kind of like saying getting good at jump-rope will prepare someone for skydiving.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

An exercise I got from a motor policeman, that tests balance skills during braking, is to stop hard enough (from a reletively slow speed) to compress the forks, then get a backwards roll when the brakes are released, then proceed without putting a foot down. The balance skills that allow that mean steering corrections are minimized meaning less chance of a steering induced skid and loss of control during hard braking.

First, I would not recommend this exercise as a braking exercise--it's a balance exercise--it brings absolutely nothing to the table in the matters of stopping quickly and safely. In fact, encouraging a rider to try and bounce their bike backwards is unsafe, and potentially can damage the bike or the rider. As a trick? Yeah, it's kinda cool. As a necessary skill or a skill that adds to the ability to stop quickly and safely? No dice.

See, we never do ride our bikes backward so trying to learn to balance going backwards makes no sense at all. The entire physics of riding is reversed, and again, as a trick I guess it's kinda neat but it has no value as a training tool.

Also, on a 250-300lb bike you can get away with a mistake while doing this trick but on a 500-800lb machine this could be an ankle-breaker of an idea.

[beginner]

I really don't see the correlation between emergency braking and balancing the bike at slow speeds. They are two entirely different animals. Saying that practicing keeping the feet on the pegs at a stop will prepare a rider for emergency stops is kind of like saying getting good at jump-rope will prepare someone for skydiving.Hard braking is the most obvious reason for improving balance skills. Your high speed balance is no better than your slow speed balance.

Do 15 minutes of quality slow ride practice on 10 out of your next 14 riding days and the bike will feel better at all speeds. Once you discover that you might keep practicing.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

A moving bike is always changing lean angle. Lean angle changes have to be corrected to keep the bike from falling. The earlier a lean angle change is detected by the rider the smaller the steering correction needs to be and less traction is given up. In hard braking that can mean the difference between a successful stop and loss of control.


Actually, a bike at speed is a strikingly stable vehicle. Your idea that somehow you must constantly steer the bike to keep it from falling is...well, dead wrong and really a little dangerous. Watch riders on the freeway or on the racetrack and you'll see them twist and turn to look over their shoulder without any change in course. Why? Because once a bike is moving, speed will stabilize it. In the MSF and all other training one of the points that we coach is that "Speed Stabilizes".

Ever wonder why you hear "My bike wouldn't turn so I ran off the road"? It's because speed stabilizes--a bike at speed wants to run straight and true. Often when riders come to a turn they don't want to steer enough to make the turn--the bike wants to go straight and riders don't want to steer it so they go wide and hit things.

Under hard braking if you keep your head and eyes up? You'll be fine, the bike is stable because it's at speed. As you slow, good eye position will keep you balanced.

IF you're under the impression that the bike is constantly trying to lean and fall it's probably because you're riding TOO slowly and a slow moving bike is an unstable bike. Pick up your speed a little and you may be more comfortable.

One last thought: Beginner is an unlicensed rider with no formal training. His understanding of motorcycle physics is in an embryonic state--his experience is in ultra low speed riding and if that's your thing? He's got some chops at under 5mph. Unfortunately his understanding of riding dynamics at speeds greater than 15mph is a bit skewed. Any body movement at 3 mph can really affect the path of travel--at 30? The physics of the the bike and Force, Mass and Acceleration take over.

[beginner]

Actually, a bike at speed is a strikingly stable vehicle.True, bnt things change when brakes are applied hard.Your idea that somehow you must constantly steer the bike to keep it from falling is...well, dead wrong and really a little dangerous.This is vintage Crashology. Whenever you read something that conflicts with your orthodoxy you say it's dangerous. You also misquote. I agreed that a bike is stable going fast, but just like 4 wheeled vehicles, applying the brakes hard reduces traction avaible for steering and reduces stability. Correcting a skid in a car is reletively easy. On a bike a front wheel skid is more likely to lead to a drop.

Speed stabilizes the bike, hard braking destabilizes the bike. Balance skills are important during braking near traction limits to minimize steering corrections.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Speed stabilizes the bike, hard braking destabilizes the bike. Balance skills are important during braking near traction limits to minimize steering corrections.

Just wrong. That's OK, I realize your experience is with stopping from 15mph and lower, where the bike really isn't that stable. Go out, try some stops from 35 and see the difference, the bike really is very stable as it stops...Here's a vid showing it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imrAbLNeFe4

And another with some practice ideas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQpJDux_M-w

[Dodsfall]

Hard braking is the most obvious reason for improving balance skills. Your high speed balance is no better than your slow speed balance.

Do 15 minutes of quality slow ride practice on 10 out of your next 14 riding days and the bike will feel better at all speeds. Once you discover that you might keep practicing.

If the goal is to become better at hard braking at speed, the best practice a rider can get is, well, braking hard at speed.

[JBorg]

I do a fair amount of emergency braking practice, if space/traffic allows sometimes from 60+mph. I think your notion that balance feels compromised from high speed braking might warrant a bit of field research. Even when I get the bike into a rear tire skid my bike feels pretty stable until the speed drops below~10mph (unless the rear starts coming around).

[beginner]

I do a fair amount of emergency braking practice, if space/traffic allows sometimes from 60+mph. I think your notion that balance feels compromised from high speed braking might warrant a bit of field research. Even when I get the bike into a rear tire skid my bike feels pretty stable until the speed drops below~10mph (unless the rear starts coming around).Balance improves over time. Balance improves faster with slow ride practice. Newbies have the poorest balance. I remember my wobbly beginnings. How agressively I use brake, throttle or steering is limited by how confident I feel about keeping the bike at a safe lean angle (and how well I'm able to feel traction changes).

If the front wheel locks during hard braking and the bike happens to be standing up very straight there is more likely to be time to ease off the front brake and avoid a drop. If the bike is leaning a bit too much for the situation, the steering correction might be enough to induce a skid. It's harder to avoid a drop if the front is skiding and the bike is leaning.

I've read that a large percentage of motorcycle crashes are single vehicle, meaning loss of control. I believe most are going wide in a turn but I wonder how many are caused by mis applying brakes. That might be an indication of the issue I'm talking about.

P.S. Crash wrote me this private message earlier this morning.

--------------------------------------
I know this sounds odd but indulge me:

By chance, are you Mormon?

Thanks,

Crash

(The lovely Mrs. Crash thought she recognized cultural cues in some of your speech.)
__________________
I MEANT to do that...

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Balance improves over time. Balance improves faster with slow ride practice. Newbies have the poorest balance. I remember my wobbly beginnings. How agressively I use brake, throttle or steering is limited by how confident I feel about keeping the bike at a safe lean angle (and how well I'm able to feel traction changes).

If the front wheel locks during hard braking and the bike happens to be standing up very straight there is more likely to be time to ease off the front brake and avoid a drop. If the bike is leaning a bit too much for the situation, the steering correction might be enough to induce a skid. It's harder to avoid a drop if the front is skiding and the bike is leaning.



I know you're concerned when I use terms like "your advice is dangerous" so let me offer an idea to you:

If this conversation were just between us, I wouldn't worry about it but this is a public conversation and people will wander by and potentially read what you write out of context. Since, to my understanding, you've never done any riding above 35mph and most of your riding on dirt at speeds below 20mph it's hard for you to guage and understand how motorcycles behave at speed. That makes your advice dubious at best and dangerous at worst.

You should never, ever engage in max braking if you are in ANY kind of a lean, to attempt to apply the brakes to threshold braking while leaned is foolhardy and (yes) very dangerous. To imply that people should or that once they are straight up and down that the bike is leaning or falling is dangerous.

As a coach I've watched as riders approach the braking box at speeds under 10mph, it's a wobbly nightmare and probably one of the most frightening things you can see. By speeding up (stabilizing the motorcycle) and keeping thier eyes up riders quickly improve thier stopping distances and comfort.

Your implication that at speed the bike is some kind of strange flopping machine needing constant steering inputs to control lean is indicative of a rider who's going too slow. It's dangerous to try and pass off a flat rule that bikes at all speeds are flopping twitching messes because new riders will read that and then try to over control thier bikes, overprocess what's going on around them and potentially get themselves into a bad situation.

For a newb, reading what you write, might be tempted to try and actively steer the bike when performing a maximum braking manuever--that is a dangerous, dangerous thing. Once you've committed to stopping simply the eyes up and the handlebar square is more than enough to pretty well guarantee a safe stop.

Riding isn't as tough as you say it is, if it were the carnage would be far, far worse than it is.

As far as the Mormon question--if you'd like to know what characteristics you display that led to the PRIVATE query I would love to share. If you want to do it in public? That's fine too.

[Roycerson]

I may get chided for mentioning this secret, but you actually can use the front brake in a turn. Very Gently.

How long do you have to be here to "know better" than to share stuff like that. I'm a noob. Here and on my bike.

I brake in turns all the time. When I brake I use both. If I'm turning left into the grocery store and a block of traffic is coming I speed up to get to my turn and brake all the way through it to slow for the parking lot while still keeping a safe distance between me and oncoming traffic.

If you don't. You're at a dead stop for who knows how long in a 50mph zone. Now THAT's scary.

I don't understand discouraging front brake use. I learned it: Use it all the time. Do NOT find yourself in a situation when you need it and aren't good with it.

[Dodsfall]

For a newb, reading what you write, might be tempted to try and actively steer the bike when performing a maximum braking manuever--that is a dangerous, dangerous thing. Once you've committed to stopping simply the eyes up and the handlebar square is more than enough to pretty well guarantee a safe stop.


Emergency braking in the real world is highly situational. Being able to use maximum controlled braking in a straight line is a valuable skill to have. It's also valuable to be able to transition from maximum braking to a maneuver or adjustment in direction and back to braking again (or maybe acceleration). Keeping the eyes up is also good for pursuing available escape routes.

Of course, the more room a rider allows themselves on the road, the more time they have to react to ugly circumstances. The "best" accidents are the ones that are avoided all together by identifying the problem early.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

I don't understand discouraging front brake use. I learned it: Use it all the time. Do NOT find yourself in a situation when you need it and aren't good with it.

You raise a good point--and nuance is an important part of it--If you tell someone, "Sure, brake in a turn" and then, hot into a turn they brake and fall...can they get up and say "Roycerson told me to do that"? Well, no because you told "I brake in turns all the time" but didn't tell them not to brake while in a serious lean; you meant "only when pulling into a parking lot". Can you see the problem?

When some folks ride robustly they brake all the way to the apex and then gas it out--when is it appropriate, if asked about corning technique, to say "Brakes to the Apex, Throttle to the Exit"? 'Cause baby that works. But it's not the best advice for everyone.

We all use both brakes all the time, the issue is how do you pass that information on, how do you frame the subject so people grow into using them?

First thing that some practice in the lot at low speed will teach you is don't grab the front--that's always good advice. Braking in turns? Can be done, carefully; work your way into it. Brake til you see God and then pour on the coal? Seen it, done it, helped pick up the pieces too...

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Emergency braking in the real world is highly situational. Being able to use maximum controlled braking in a straight line is a valuable skill to have. It's also valuable to be able to transition from maximum braking to a maneuver or adjustment in direction and back to braking again (or maybe acceleration). Keeping the eyes up is also good for pursuing available escape routes.

Of course, the more room a rider allows themselves on the road, the more time they have to react to ugly circumstances. The "best" accidents are the ones that are avoided all together by identifying the problem early.

Agreed. Keep all your options open be ready to commit all your traction resources where you need them.

[Dodsfall]

Agreed. Keep all your options open be ready to commit all your traction resources where you need them.

The majority of riders are coming from road experience with automobiles first. It's more common to "panic brake" with a car when an emergency situation comes about. That's exactly the wrong thing to do with a bike most of the time. Keeping the bike shiny side up takes more reflexes/muscle memory meaning more practice.

I would say the best overall riding skill to develop is proper judgement of speed to fit the situation. It's easy to get carried away and take a corner too hot, go through a blind intersection too fast, get too close to the car in front, or assume that left turner will patiently wait for you to pass by before turning. Simply slowing down when the potential for danger arises can prevent the majority of motorcycle accidents.

[beginner]

Motorcycles have brakes but I don't have emergency stopping capability on a bike. May be I will someday, may be not. In the mean time I rides as though I don't have that capability.

It sounds to me like Crash wants people to believe that all that's needed to have the full use of motorcycle brakes is to keep your head and eyes up. That's a dangerous claim. A lot of crashes happen because riders rely on a skill they don't have at crunch time.

[Dodsfall]

It sounds to me like Crash wants people to believe that all that's needed to have the full use of motorcycle brakes is to keep your head and eyes up.

I don't remember reading anyone claiming that's all that is needed to learn about braking.

Some useful info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Looking to the ground is a very common mistake that most new riders make, however. It's human nature to look down and practice will overcome the urge to do that.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Motorcycles have brakes but I don't have emergency stopping capability on a bike. May be I will someday, may be not. In the mean time I rides as though I don't have that capability.

It sounds to me like Crash wants people to believe that all that's needed to have the full use of motorcycle brakes is to keep your head and eyes up. That's a dangerous claim. A lot of crashes happen because riders rely on a skill they don't have at crunch time.

Good. Knowing our limits is an VITAL motorcycling skill. It's good to know that you realize you are lacking some abilities because now you can work on them. I would suggest, again, that you attempt stopping from incrementally higher speeds.

Remember to keep your head and eyes up and use a smooth, progressive grip--as you slow you can increase pressure on the lever. Review the vids above and keep working on it and your emergency braking will surely come on line. (A class, a BRC2, like they offer over in Bad Axe, wouldn't hurt either).

I would offer only one more thing: that with knobbies on you be careful and realize they are not street tires and might get a little sketchy.

[Roycerson]

all that's needed to have the full use of motorcycle brakes is to keep your head and eyes up. That's a dangerous claim. A lot of crashes happen because riders rely on a skill they don't have at crunch time.

I have an uncle who has gone down twice in his life. Both times cuz he neglected the front brake until he absolutely had to use it. So he did... poorly.

Alas, he still refuses to get an armored jacket, consciously counter-steer or practice good brake discipline. And HE is a wild man. Y'all might have come under the impression that I'm crazy out there on the street.. well, nothing like this guy I'm not.

I'm sticking with "use your front brake, practice it in the parking lot, if you go down, well, you did it in the parking lot with all your gear on, you'll be fine."

[beginner]

I don't remember reading anyone claiming that's all that is needed to learn about braking.

Some useful info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Looking to the ground is a very common mistake that most new riders make, however. It's human nature to look down and practice will overcome the urge to do that.The common mistake is believing you have some skill that isn't there. Crash doesn't distinguish between routine and emergency braking situations. There are more mistakes when time is short. Grabbing a brake too hard and locking a wheel would be one of them that's not likely to happen in practice.

Another emergency braking mistake would be getting stiff on the bike during a hard stop which could induce an unnecessary lean that requires a steering correction and that pushes the front tire into a skid and a drop.

[JBorg]

Personally, I think practice is the time you want to lock up a wheel from time to time. I've done it, intentionally even. How else are you going to find your limits.
You don't want to discover that in traffic.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Let me restate this for you when you are max braking you are committing all you traction to stopping. To instruct riders to make steering inputs while max braking is irresponsible and dangerous.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Crash doesn't distinguish between routine and emergency braking situations...

Posted the last one 1/2 through a trip with Mrs. Crash--used a smart phone and was unable to see the full implications of your last post Beginner...now that I'm back from a 150 mile trip with the lovely Mrs. Crash, she wanted me to say this to you: "You lying sh*t." Yeah I agree with her. You are.

Let's state the facts:

You have been riding a dirt bike on the street for 4 years.
You have never been trained in any way, shape or form to ride.
You refuse to take the Michigan riding test and get licensed.
You, by your own admission, never travel faster than 35mph.
By your own admission you rarely travel on pavement.
By your own admission you are not an expert rider.
You have no experience with max braking with a street bike equipped with street tires.
You have been banned at 3 other websites for giving dangerous and false information.
You do have experience with grabbing the front and crashing--when you were ignoring a lawful order given by a law enforcement officer--I'll give you that.

I'm supposed to respect my elders but in this case I have to be honest--giving people the idea we haven't been talking about anything BUT max braking on the street places you with the Joseph Goebbels of the world in self delusion and the ability to ignore reality.

Bytheby of all the places locking the front might happen--don't you think that during practice would be the best? In fact, I've seen raw rookies with a skill set even lower than yours skid the front in practice, release, recover and reapply--what was the common thing they did? No steering, eyes up.

[beginner]

I worked on inline skate braking issues back in the day. Reliable braking is problematic because the COG of the skates and skater combination is high and unstable. I came up with a solution that could take me from a full sprint to a full stop on level ground in about a car length. It's fun and useful but still not an emergency braking solution because performance depended on pavement surface conditions more so than with a car. Collision avoidance is still the only realistic stratagy.

I'm not so sure of myself when it comes to motorcycles but I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that emergency braking is always a risky maneuver for the same reasons as the inline skate situation, instability of the bike and rider combination, compounded by speed and road hazards like curbs, lamposts, guard rails, etc.

When bikes started to be practical transportation, sometime before WWI, I think they were viewed as slow speed transportation also capable of going fast, similar to a horse. All bikes had to function on dirt because there wasn't much pavement. Today, with so many paved high speed roads, bikes have to be marketed as the reverse, high speed machines also capable of going slow. The industry needs us to believe that modern brakes have made emergency braking less risky. I'm not buying it. May be the thing to do when there's traffic is operate the bike as though it's an 18 wheeler with the driver's seat bolted to the front bumper.

P.S. When I notice the slightest hint of an ad hominum attack in a post I stop reading. Crash, if you want to be taken seriously stop doing that and respond on the merits.

[JBorg]

You say something thats very true; emergency braking is a risky maneuver (if you're not good at it). But if you're riding through town, and a pedestrian decides to hop off the curb into your path, what's your alternative?
A year ago I took the basic riders course. At the end the instructors said, "Practice emergency braking and hazard avoidance. It could save your life". Good advice, I think.

..and.
I'm not an expert. I've only a year and 4K miles under my belt. Crash, and others here, are experts. Worth listening to, not arguing with.
:)

[CaptCrashIdaho]

P.S. When I notice the slightest hint of an ad hominum attack in a post I stop reading. Crash, if you want to be taken seriously stop doing that and respond on the merits.

An important part if this conversation is understanding the source of the information you're dealing with. Could you give us your motorcycling credentials please?

Oh, wait I have them right here:

You have been riding a dirt bike on the street for 4 years.
You have never been trained in any way, shape or form to ride.
You refuse to take the Michigan riding test and get licensed.
You, by your own admission, never travel faster than 35mph.
By your own admission you rarely travel on pavement.
By your own admission you are not an expert rider.
You have no experience with max braking with a street bike equipped with street tires.
You have been banned at 3 (or more) sites for giving false and dangerous information.

That information is important to the casual reader so they can take what you say and put value to it.

We have beat and beat this dead horse over and over and over, where you make dangerous claims like during max braking you should be actively steering the bike--which is wrong, wrong, wrong. If, during max braking you decide you need to change direction then you need to make traction available to do that, meaning get off the brakes and steer, then reapply the brakes.

Your belief that "the industry" and "the training industry" is out to kill motorcyclists is wrongheaded and points to a "conspiracy" mindset that is well...hard to understand. (Although Big Tobacco actively kills it's customers, that takes years and chemical addiction...so there's some return on investment.)

To be taken seriously you need to ride the common motorcycles in the common way--you ride a dirt bike, with dirt tires, on dirt and then tell Sportbikers, and Cruisers, and Adventure Tourers, and Standards how to ride theirs. You'll notice in my videos we've constantly changed bikes to make sure that everyone knows "your bike will do that". Your striking lack of experience, refusal to be trained and licensed, coupled with a shocking lack of humility makes for a lethal combination of bad advice.

I know that, to you, this feels like an attack but it isn't, its just what is. You can "stop reading" and even hold your breath if you'd like but it won't change the fact that you are in no way an expert or, for that matter, even an interested beginner in the art and science of riding.

Hell, you're so goofed up you won't even buy a pair of riding gloves because it's a conspiracy of some kind...

[beginner]

You say something thats very true; emergency braking is a risky maneuver (if you're not good at it).Emergency braking is a risky maneuver even if you are good at it.But if you're riding through town, and a pedestrian decides to hop off the curb into your path, what's your alternative?If I was a motor policeman hitting a pedestrian would be my most dreaded mistake regardless of who was at fault. Reducing that risk is a reason to practice like motor police.A year ago I took the basic riders course. At the end the instructors said, "Practice emergency braking and hazard avoidance. It could save your life". Good advice, I think.Brake practice was frustrating for me until I concluded that skill with the brakes is limited by control of lean angle (particularly close to zero degrees) and feel for traction changes. Those are core skills that will take years to develop regardless of time on drills and exercises, an inconvenient truth for the industry and promoters of training courses.I'm not an expert. I've only a year and 4K miles under my belt.The only expertise that really matters is how to keep yourself alive. I've been riding for 3 1/2 years and might have 1500 hours of moving time. My view, if you haven't been riding for at least 5 years you suck, myself included. Crash, and others here, are experts. Worth listening to, not arguing with.Online riding "experts" always turn out to be loyal to some product or products and that always turns out to be the controling influence on whatever they have to say.

[LWRider]

Beginner, you spout a lot of stuff as tried and true. You say this in spite of what many many experts say, yet you have never once backed up any of those claims with hard scientific evidence. When what you say is contradicted by expert riders, yet you claim they are the misinformed ones! You feeling something is so is not good enough for me, and it certainly should not be for beginner riders.

Your obstinency is amazing. The ability to learn has a lot to do with the ability to admit you are wrong or at least misinformed, and you don't seem capable of that. That is going to limit your progress in riding proficiency. I personally hope you find some humility in your self and fid that very humility can make you a better rider.

Beginning riders do not have the experience to know who is trained and experienced and who is not. They do not have the training or experience to know whether something said is based on the physics of riding or not. Therefore it is important that those who are trained "call you out"; it is not an "attack" on you, but a way to protect new bikers. They care enough about new riders that they are willing to stand up and speak, when it would be much easier to sit and read the thread, and let it go. WHo wants to fight? I know Crash personally and he is not one to argue fr the sake of argument and to put someone down. This is a potentially dangerous sport and the wrong information can get people killed at worst, or delay their skill development at least.

Cheers,

Mike

[beginner]

LWrider, "Experts" are worse than useless if their ideas are too distorted by their commercial intersts. It's easy to spot that unless you don't want to know. Training classes are the most often mentioned product of the online riding experts. There have been a bunch of studies trying to determine if "trained" riders have a better safety record than the untrained and so far no difference has been found. Training may have benefits but safety isn't one of them. In the mean time everyone should be skeptical of everyone's beliefs, including their own.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Sweeping Generalization.

Here's the facts: For NEW riders there's a marked difference in crash rates for the first 6 months to a year. After that you can propose that the "school of hard knocks" has knocked out or polished untrained riders so the crash rates run about the same.

OH and "Beginner"? This false modesty thing has got to go--you suck because you want to, you want riding to be fabulously difficult and something only highly trained and experienced people can do. Why? So you're more impressive if you become accomplished or to hide your own inadequacies?

Bytheby B-man, if you want a FREE book, PM me your address, I'll sign it and ship it no charge.

Love, Hugs, and Sloppy Wet Kisses,

Crash

[Ride55]

Beginner, there is no doubt that you fit the saying "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." You are not even qualified to carry Crash's lunch pail, never mind get into a discussion on braking of any kind with him. And I share his concern that someone might actually take your opinion and try and place it into practice.

Now, that is bold statement by a new member here, so maybe a bit of my background might be worth mentioning.

45 years motorcycling of which several where on sidecar rigs. My guess would be 200,000 miles total.
43 years car driving, significantly over 1,000,000 miles
33 years Tractor/Trailer driving, significantly over 2,000,000 miles
10 years Tractor/Trailer instructor with a student base of over 500 in the trucks alone.
Two chargeable accidents in 45 years (neither included injury's of any kind, and both had very little damage to the vehicles)and a handful of moving violations.

That being said, what my experience in all of that tells me is that you are talking significantly over your pay grade.

You simply do not have enough practical experience to offer an opinion of any kind that is valid in any capacity.

And people will get hurt because you are doing it.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Thank you for the kind words. Back in the early 80s I had a Class 1 license and drove tractor trailers in the SF Bay Area. Some day we should swap stories about what going through the scales and getting inspections are like...

As an instructor/educator I will point one thing out and ask for your opinion:

I have always held, and still do, that if Beginner could appropriately channel his energy/desire and get trained, engage with other riders as a learner instead of some kind of...prophet (?) I think he could be real asset to his community.

[HKshooter]

I have always held, and still do, that if Beginner could appropriately channel his energy/desire and get trained, engage with other riders as a learner instead of some kind of...prophet (?) I think he could be real asset to his community.

Yeah, if only he could get over himself first.

[Ride55]

I have always held, and still do, that if Beginner could appropriately channel his energy/desire and get trained, engage with other riders as a learner instead of some kind of...prophet (?) I think he could be real asset to his community.

Not only this one, but I assume all of the other ones he gets involved with. It is a harsh criticism, but I see profits come and go and generally they add nothing to critical discussion as they look for followers not truths.

I popped over to his Utube site and looked at some of his vids, nothing impresses me as being much more than what he signs in as, Beginner.

I would like to see him do that stuff on a two-up 1,200 lb Decker. Want to really impress me, do a figure 8 with a sidecar rig with the chair in the air. You will find out what clutch, brake and balance are all about.

I was at a HOG rally back in the early 90's. We where in the parking lot (I had my hack) taking a break and I saw this group of riders coming through. All where going very slow in a straight line. What I remember was the first four guys, all riding single, doing the "ride and walk", except for the last rider. She had a guy on the back, who looked like he was 250 lbs if he was 1 lb, and she was going the same speed as the rest. Her feet stayed on the floor boards, and the bike ran straight and true. It was a real demonstration of how to ride at slow speed. For the life of me, I could not sort out why she was running tail end charlie, she should have taken point.

[Ride55]

Thank you for the kind words. Back in the early 80s I had a Class 1 license and drove tractor trailers in the SF Bay Area. Some day we should swap stories about what going through the scales and getting inspections are like...


They do make for good stories. Last fall I was training a fellow to run south in a tractor/trailer. We where running from Edmonton to Southern California and Texas. I have a really, really good story about my experience driving in California......but I digress, this is a thread about driving "slow".....

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Yeah, Beginner is odd because sometimes it feels like he has a passion for motorcycles, but when you try to help him indulge it he gets all weird. Other times I think his passion is to be looked at--a desire to be important and be noticed.

There's just soooo much desire in him if you could channel it appropriately it could be magnificent.

Reminds me of a star athlete that self-sabotages themselves routinely...

(or of the CHiPpie who, when I was 3000 under gross and 400 over on the third axle made me untarp the load and move 20 rolls of sod from the tongue to the tail...)

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Beginner: This is for you--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWdUmcwZn-A

You are the Woodsman.
Bikes are your love.
"Infinitesimal changes in lean" is your ax.

Get your head and eyes up, see where you are, understand that you've become so focused on minutiae that you've forgot to enjoy the ride.

[Gereke]

From a beginner to the sport..

Everything I've seen "beginner" write is something I'd run far, far away from. Wouldn't touch any of his "advice" with another mans 40 foot pole.

One of the guys in my MSF course bit the big one during the emergency brake portion of the skills test. He locked up both brakes, looked down towards the ground, turned his wheel, and didn't even attempt to release the brakes. Down he went like a house of cards. Do not pass go, do not collect your "completion card". Anyway, I digress and derail.

Before I even took the MSF I did a lot of reading and research, including watching Crash's videos. I felt all the more prepared for the basic course as a result. My confidence was high and everything I had read about and watched made perfect sense when I performed the tasks for real.

I'm a pretty confident fellow, and hindsight being 20/20 I know for a fact that had I tried to teach myself to ride, I would have probably wound up breaking my bike and myself. Certain know-how is invaluable and it's completely asinine to wave off those that are "in the know".

I too am a former trucker, and there isn't any way I'd of ignored the training and advice given to me by the old hand that was my instructor at CDL school, nor would I ignore what my OTR trainer had to say. In the world of Truckin' and Bikin' poor training, and bad habits are recipes for disaster beyond the scale of what can happen in a simple "4 wheeler" mishap.

Anyway, old hands keep on keepin on. Let clowns like Beginner fade into the nether where they belong. There are a lot of newbies out there that appreciate what you do. Let the nay sayers earn their way into the books as a "sample size increase".

[LWRider]

LWrider, "Experts" are worse than useless if their ideas are too distorted by their commercial intersts. It's easy to spot that unless you don't want to know. Training classes are the most often mentioned product of the online riding experts. <Not worth commenting on. :rolleyes: There have been a bunch of studies trying to determine if "trained" riders have a better safety record than the untrained and so far no difference has been found. Training may have benefits but safety isn't one of them. In the mean time everyone should be skeptical of everyone's beliefs, including their own.

I just had to go look this up. Again, an assertion comlpetely unsupported by the facts. From the Hurt Report (summary): "The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents."

Cheers,

Mike

[Ride55]

I just had to go look this up. Again, an assertion comlpetely unsupported by the facts. From the Hurt Report (summary): "The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents."

Cheers,

Mike

I will tell you how much I support this.

When my wife wanted to learn to ride a motorcycle I sent her to a certified motorcycle training course. If anyone had the background and experience to teach her to drive, it was me. What I lacked was the skill sets a good teacher has to make sure the material is delivered in a safe and methodological way.

What all new riders must understand about his statement "Training may have benefits but safety isn't one of them" is how incredibly dangerous that statement is.

Beginner, you are talking off the top of your head and have no practical experience to make the statements you are making. You do not have either the training, or experience to make those statements.

My fear is that people will die because of it.

The sad part for your is that you seem to have passion for the sport. Learn to ride, then learn to teach. Do both correctly and you will add something to the sport, keep on doing it the way you are, and their will be dead people in your wake.

[beginner]

The original topic is Crash's assertion that the #1 benefit of PLP is braking skills. Braking mistakes seem to be an important contributor to crashes. The two types of mistakes that come to mind are hesitating to use the full capability of the brakes or locking a wheel and droping the bike. If riders taking classes have the same crash rate as riders who don't it's likely they make the same mistakes. What ever the class takers learned it didn't matter in the end. May be it would be more useful to compare crashers to non crashers who ride similar amounts on similar bikes and see if there are obvious differences that might account for why the non crashers don't crash.

I still believe the best use of PLP time is to improve balance skills with the bike. A cousin of mine showed up yesterday to take care of some family business. He got some coaching from a friend who is a retired motor cop instructor. The first thing he wanted my cousin to demonstrate was his slow ride skills. He said balance on the bike is the core skill and slow riding is the most productive way to develop it. I agree with that because it comes from a reliable source and because it's also consistant with my personal experience on the bike.

[LWRider]

" If riders taking classes have the same crash rate as riders who don't..."

But they don't! Do you not believe the Hurt Report?

[SpitefulHam]

If riders taking classes have the same crash rate as riders who don't it's likely they make the same mistakes.

My google-foo is strong. The only "report" I've been able to find that claims this is the one from 2010 by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety is a special interest group working FIRST AND FOREMOST for insurance companies. They also "authored" a report in 2007 that claimed that supersports were 4 times more likely to be involved in highway accidents then other bikes. That report was widely criticized as a back-door attempt by insurance companies to get certain types of motorcycles banned or neutered. If you have any other sources (preferably any that aren't obviously biased) then I would love to read it.

[KMWilliams]

... I've always held that forums are like parties--you're a guest and as a guest you can be part of a spirited discussion but refrain from personal attack and denigrating others or their beliefs...If you do that kind of stuff--expect ramifications.
.


This here party is now over. Everyone involved can expect some type of PM soon.

THREAD LOCKED!