Is it bad to run wide open on a small bike?

[Nathan2587]

I have a Honda CRF230L and I was wondering how hard is on the bike if I run it wide open. Max speed is around 70. If I take it on long stretches on the interstate would it be hard on the bike?

[npe1283]

shouldnt be..

[markk53]

No, it's not. The play bike engines are overengineered when it comes to that. They're understressed high performance technology with less than max power pulled from them.

You could run 80% redline all day long without any effects at all and likely 100% too. Kids do it on mopeds, off roaders do it on off road machines too.

[CookinBeans]

Well- that's the fun of small bikes.

I would, however, make sure the lump is tuned up, keep it below redline, and use good oil.

[Racklefratz]

I have a Honda CRF230L and I was wondering how hard is on the bike if I run it wide open. Max speed is around 70. If I take it on long stretches on the interstate would it be hard on the bike?

When engine internals rub against each other, wear is the inevitable result. The faster you run it, the faster this wear occurs. Regular oil changes with quality oils will help *LIMIT* this process, but won't they will not *PREVENT* it from occurring. You can run your engine as fast as you want, but be aware that it *WILL* wear out eventually, and the faster you run it, the faster it will wear out. No engine lasts indefinitely.

IMO, if you find yourself having to run wide open often simply to keep up with traffic, you need a more capable machine, unless you're unconcerned about accelerated engine wear and tear.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

If it's really an issue that concerns you? Potentially you can use a smaller sprocket on the rear--this will gear the bike UP and your launches may take a little more clutch but it will run at a little lower RPM at 70mph.

I went down 2 or 3 teeth on my DRZ400SM rear sprocket for that particular reason...well, so it would do the ton better as well...BUT everything has a trade off.

[TH3 Truck]

I personally don't like to be in a situation where I have to run my bike wide open, not for mechanical reasons persay but for safety reasons. I always like to have some throttle in reserve incase I need to make a rapid excape from some idiot on his cell phone not paying attention to the road.

[Casey Stangle]

I used to run my CB160 wide open. Use good, clean ,quality oil. Actually used GT-1 racing oit in 30 weight for that purpose.

[OTD]

I used to run my CB160 wide open. Use good, clean ,quality oil. Actually used GT-1 racing oit in 30 weight for that purpose.

I had a CL125 when I was 14 that I rode wide open constantly back and forth to school and work for 2 years until I was old enough to drive and it never caused any problems. As stated above keep up with your maintenence and it should be fine.

[Sidewalk]

I watch bikes run WOT all the time on the track. My friend races a CRF150R and is a Honda mechanic. He was lazy and didn't get around to doing a top end on schedule (way, way behind schedule). When he finally did it this off season he noticed no wear, even after hours, and hours of race abuse.

My 24 hour team ran an XR100 for, well, 24 hours of racing. No noticeable wear.

Stock bike engines can handle a lot of abuse. Especially over engineered dirt bike engines (like the 230).

[Biker Dash]

I concur with whats been the general opinion here, that your engine should be just fine. Especially if you use a good, high quality motorcycle engine oil. Yes, the wear will be accelerated some as was posted, but these engines will still last a good long while.

Now, where as your max speed is only 70, and your running WOT just to try to keep up on the interstate, your gonna want to go with a smaller rear sprocket as Crash said. My only caviet is that it wont help much to be honest, if your already pushing the bike to it's limit. Your just at it's max, and cannot expect more.

Thats the same reason I generally do not recommend a Rebel for the interstate. Running 9/10ths+ all day wont do any harm, but I prefer to be at 8/10ths or a bit lower on the interstate, just so I have room in the powerband to manuver. It may be time to consider a bigger bike.

[markk53]

When engine internals rub against each other, wear is the inevitable result. The faster you run it, the faster this wear occurs. Regular oil changes with quality oils will help *LIMIT* this process, but won't they will not *PREVENT* it from occurring. You can run your engine as fast as you want, but be aware that it *WILL* wear out eventually, and the faster you run it, the faster it will wear out. No engine lasts indefinitely.

IMO, if you find yourself having to run wide open often simply to keep up with traffic, you need a more capable machine, unless you're unconcerned about accelerated engine wear and tear.


If you've ever been around well maintained small bores, usually dirt related, they can handle the high revs just fine. Fact is the small bores usually easily will last as long as the big boys, it's just that they get "abandoned" to sit in some corner and rot. That is the biggest "wear point" on most small bores. The only ones I've ever seen worn out were either high strung racers or neglected.

My money is on that 230 lasting a long time at the high revs. After all, Honda's own 250 Reflex Scooter is spending a huge amount of time wound out pretty tight. I saw a constant 6500 rpm under normal acceleration. That's pretty good for a four stroke single.

The reason they will last so well is purely physics. The parts are smaller in general and the loads will be less on them. The 230s are abut 1/4 of a 750 with less parts and weight. Nothing about the way they run will be any more harmful than the same actions on a 750 and probably less since they use a ball and roller bearing bottom end. The single does not have all the dynamics going on that a multi will have going on. Simplicity can last a long time.

As for freeway riding, my concern is less about the performance of the bike than the antics of the drivers around me. Same concerns I have on any bike on any freeway - the reason I don't spend much time on freeways. In areas of high congestion and average speeds of vehicles being up to 75 mph, I am not to hip on riding my bike, the old Wing I had or my current 550. I have ridden on limited access highways where traffic was relatively light on my old MB5 with a top speed of 50 mph - period. It's all about what is going on around you and how well you deal with it.

[Racklefratz]

If you've ever been around well maintained small bores, usually dirt related, they can handle the high revs just fine....The reason they will last so well is purely physics. The parts are smaller in general and the loads will be less on them.

Well and good, but small parts are just as prone to metal-against-metal wear as big parts, especially at high power settings, defined as WOT for purposes of this discussion. I didn't say the bike couldn't withstand operation at WOT. What I said was, run it that way and do it often, and it will wear out faster. If that outcome is OK with the OP, fine with me. But it's a fact that applies to any engine, including your family car. Keep it in the "normal" operating rpm range and the engine will be a lot happier than if you push it to the limit all the time. Where the "normal" rpm range falls for any particular engine is irrelevant here.

The real eye-opener to me, in this thread, is that so many people are oblivious to the wear that occurs when a bike is run at maximum power continuously and often. It's all the evidence anyone should need to know that used bikes should be avoided, since so many people think that beating the engine to death has no consequences. I sure wouldn't want to own a bike that had been treated in that manner.

[OTD]

Well and good, but small parts are just as prone to metal-against-metal wear as big parts, especially at high power settings, defined as WOT for purposes of this discussion. I didn't say the bike couldn't withstand operation at WOT. What I said was, run it that way and do it often, and it will wear out faster. If that outcome is OK with the OP, fine with me. But it's a fact that applies to any engine, including your family car. Keep it in the "normal" operating rpm range and the engine will be a lot happier than if you push it to the limit all the time. Where the "normal" rpm range falls for any particular engine is irrelevant here.

The real eye-opener to me, in this thread, is that so many people are oblivious to the wear that occurs when a bike is run at maximum power continuously and often. It's all the evidence anyone should need to know that used bikes should be avoided, since so many people think that beating the engine to death has no consequences. I sure wouldn't want to own a bike that had been treated in that manner.

Uh yeah.... You're aware that say a bike like my old 1973 CL125 can't even begin to pull anywhere near redline in high gear. They are maxed out only in the fact that they can't pull anymore. They don't have the cam profile, valve size or many of the things it would take for them to run "maxed out". They are underbuilt intentionally to avoid abuse. They are not bouncing off of a rev limiter for an extended amount of time.:rolleyes:

[Racklefratz]

Uh yeah.... You're aware that say a bike like my old 1973 CL125 can't even begin to pull anywhere near redline in high gear. They are maxed out only in the fact that they can't pull anymore. They don't have the cam profile, valve size or many of the things it would take for them to run "maxed out". They are underbuilt intentionally to avoid abuse. They are not bouncing off of a rev limiter for an extended amount of time.:rolleyes:

No, I don't have intimate knowledge of "your old CL125", or many other "toy bikes". You're missing my point. I don't give a rip about "redline". That's a painted stripe on the speedo or tach, and the mfgr can paint it wherever they want to. What I can't figure out is why some people don't seem to understand that when you run an engine as hard as it can go, forget cams/valves/whatever, it's not gonna' "go" as long as it would have if you had been kind to it - that's all.

[OTD]

No, I don't have intimate knowledge of "your old CL125", or many other "toy bikes". You're missing my point. I don't give a rip about "redline". That's a painted stripe on the speedo or tach, and the mfgr can paint it wherever they want to. What I can't figure out is why some people don't seem to understand that when you run an engine as hard as it can go, forget cams/valves/whatever, it's not gonna' "go" as long as it would have if you had been kind to it - that's all.

I was using my CL as an example. Running that bike wide open was not running it as hard as the engine could run without catastrophic failure. It was running as hard as it "would run" as it was limited by engine design. The manufacturer can put a governor on there or they can simply underpower it to limit available power.
It's not that hard to understand if you're willing.

[Nathan2587]

Thanks for the advice people.

Obviously I don't intend to go long stretches on the highway but I wanted to know just in case. I want to be able go anywhere on my bike which I feel I can.

I understand the safety reasons for having a bit more power on the freeway but they can always pass me if they want. But I can see it happening when a car is trying pass another car then get back to the exit lane and didn't see the motorcyclist.

But thats the risk you take when you drive with any vehicle on the road. You're just less protected on a bike.

I realize though that if your running it wide open it will cause more wear than staying within normal RPM ranges but since it is a smaller bike (basically dirt bike) and such maybe it wouldn't wear out as fast as other vehicles.

Really good info, thanks.

[markk53]

Well and good, but small parts are just as prone to metal-against-metal wear as big parts, especially at high power settings, defined as WOT for purposes of this discussion. I didn't say the bike couldn't withstand operation at WOT. What I said was, run it that way and do it often, and it will wear out faster. If that outcome is OK with the OP, fine with me. But it's a fact that applies to any engine, including your family car. Keep it in the "normal" operating rpm range and the engine will be a lot happier than if you push it to the limit all the time. Where the "normal" rpm range falls for any particular engine is irrelevant here.

The real eye-opener to me, in this thread, is that so many people are oblivious to the wear that occurs when a bike is run at maximum power continuously and often. It's all the evidence anyone should need to know that used bikes should be avoided, since so many people think that beating the engine to death has no consequences. I sure wouldn't want to own a bike that had been treated in that manner.

I guess I need another 40 years in your book, right?

I mean I spent about 22 years at a shop full and part time. I will tell you I've seen well maintained Honda singles that are run off road - no tach, no speed limits - without any major wear issues. I know one kid who did a legitimate 65,000 miles on a Honda XR250! Since the gearing is so much lower than any street bike I'd say that was probably worth about 100,000 street miles.

I'd love to know from what information you draw all the conclusions you have. Especially since it seems to contradict what we actually saw... and what has been going on in the auto industry.

In fact, the current batch of small bore automobiles from Japan that have been here for the last 50 years seem to contradict it too. My 98 Mazda 626 is still going strong approaching 200,000 miles last I knew. It's only a 2000cc engine with a 5 speed that reved about 4000 rpm at 65. The Honda Prelude we had seemed to do the same hitting about 175,000 when my daughter beat the snot out of the exterior to the point where the only good part was the engine and tranny. So how's that fit with the small bores wear out theory?

Finally, there is a difference between running 80% of redline versus drag racing and holeshots. Scooters live at that level most of their lives and still seem to be doing fine. I would rather have a Ninja 250 that was run upward of 6000-8000 rpm most of the time over one that was lugged around in the 3000-5000 range. The loads would be far lighter on the one run at higher rpm. It's all about the loads, piston speeds relative to weight per everything I've ever read by Kevin Cameron and others like him. The low masses are the reasons the small engines can rev hard and last long.

[Racklefratz]

I guess I need another 40 years in your book, right?....I'd love to know from what information you draw all the conclusions you have.

My position is unchanged. I don't care what engine you choose to talk about, the answer is the same: beat it to death and it will die sooner than If you treat it with due respect.

I won't waste any more time debating this. You obviously disagree, so, be my guest...disagree.

[markk53]

No, I don't have intimate knowledge of "your old CL125", or many other "toy bikes". You're missing my point. I don't give a rip about "redline". That's a painted stripe on the speedo or tach, and the mfgr can paint it wherever they want to. What I can't figure out is why some people don't seem to understand that when you run an engine as hard as it can go, forget cams/valves/whatever, it's not gonna' "go" as long as it would have if you had been kind to it - that's all.

Maybe you should actually read what has been said by some of us. It's not running redline (real, and if you ever saw any of the dyno runs on most bikes you'd see the manufacturers' "painted lines" is real). It's running 60-80% which is in general the peak torque range.

Heck that'd only be 6400 on an 1100-1200 Wing and I know darn well they could do that all day long without risk of any major wear, I've had a couple of the 1100s myself. Most riders are harder on them trying to keep rpm under Honda's recommended low of 3000 rpm, thinking they're treating them good and gettng good mileage. They aren't tractors and Honda service division specifically told us the prime operating range for mpg was 3500-4500 regardless of the gear. At 80% rpm the oil film on the bearings surfaces will be strong and the actual load on the bikes light.

As for your insult to the guy and his bike, just because it's not some gargantuan ogre machine... that takes guts from someone riding one of Motorcyclist Magazine's "Stupid Money" bikes.

[Biker Dash]

No, I don't have intimate knowledge of "your old CL125", or many other "toy bikes". You're missing my point. I don't give a rip about "redline". That's a painted stripe on the speedo or tach, and the mfgr can paint it wherever they want to. What I can't figure out is why some people don't seem to understand that when you run an engine as hard as it can go, forget cams/valves/whatever, it's not gonna' "go" as long as it would have if you had been kind to it - that's all.

Ok, I think I have heard enough of your "know-it-all" attitude and your wanting to put everyone down who does not agree with your delisions of grandure and "encyclopedic knowledge".

Your trying to argue stupid sh!t with some people who know more about bikes than you have shown to know, and frankly, I am sick of your vomitus garbage.

Do us all a favor and superglue either that ashen piehole you call a mouth shut so that we no longer have to listen to your pompous triade, or superglue your anus shut so maybe within a day, you might explode, as full of sh!t that you are.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Boy howdy. This went ugly fast.

Bottomline is this--the redline is the redline for a reason--running at it or PAST it puts you at the edge of the (TA DUH) operating envelope.

Me? Pretty comfortable there. Others? Not. If you're there for hours and hours? Change the oil regular.

[trixter]

I have a Honda CRF230L and I was wondering how hard is on the bike if I run it wide open. Max speed is around 70. If I take it on long stretches on the interstate would it be hard on the bike?

I dont know that bike specifically or what mods are done. On different forums, and this came up today, someone rejetted and did other stuff and ran it WOT a lot. WOT after the mods meant redline. He blew his engine.

I have the same bike and was doing the same mods because with my weight the top speed is 45 and that just wont do (its unsafe I will get driven over as cars try to pass if I go into town). This was a word of caution to me, and I assume that it would apply to you as well.

[trixter]

I was using my CL as an example. Running that bike wide open was not running it as hard as the engine could run without catastrophic failure. It was running as hard as it "would run" as it was limited by engine design. The manufacturer can put a governor on there or they can simply underpower it to limit available power.
It's not that hard to understand if you're willing.

I can agree with that, my bike has a difficult time redlining on rpm without the clutch lever depressed and cant redline on speed because it was so underpowered. Now it can redline on at least rpm (jet+exhaust+intake) and I still have a sprocket to swap (leaving the other in reserve). Now I have to be careful about rpm when I ride it.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Why is it that when someone runs a bike all day WFO and it doesn't blow up they get no credibility yet, when someone hacks on it, runs it WFO and blows it up that is gospel?

There's plenty of people who erroneously believe that anything over 4k will blow up any bike when, in fact, the bike will rev plenty higher.

A serious question is being ignored here: why doesn't anyone worry about lugging their engine or running at low rpms and circulating less oil and water, and potentially running hotter?

I grew up wringing the sh*t out of singles AND inline fours, they loved it and so did I.

If you don't want to run your bike up to the redline? Cool. These things degenerate into an argument like arguing helmets pretty quick.

OH and "WOT" is cockney for "What". WFO is WIDE F**KIN' OPEN and the appropriate term for what we're talking about. (But I'm old school.)

[trixter]

My comment was about the mods and redlining. I thought I was clear on that by saying "I dont know [...] what mods are done" and the references to redlining.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

My comment was about the mods and redlining. I thought I was clear on that by saying "I dont know [...] what mods are done" and the references to redlining.

No worries. The real issue is that wringing the bike out is a bit like wearing helmets, do whatcha gotta do.

[markk53]

The key thing with most modifications is that the engine starts getting stress not engineered into the design. Thus my reason for not modifying my bikes to any major extent - no big cams (well maybe in the street tracker), no high compression (well again in the tracker), and no major changes pushing the stress levels closer to limits. My one bike has a big bore piston, but with near stock compression, and a pipe - otherwise it's stock. The 550 runs fine in stock condition with good power from 3500 on. It's so understressed I'm not worried about anything with it in any rpm it will cruise.

Honda's stock play engines are way understressed as built. The MXers are a whole lot closer to the edge. The play bikes were built knowing they would be undermaintained and overabused. The MX bikes were built with the expectation that the riders would maintain them and tune them properly. If you don't you will damage the MX bike's engine.

If you get to the point where you intend to do any modifications internally to the engine, it's time to simply go buy a more powerful bike. About all I'd do is gear the bike a bit taller for the highway and maybe add a pipe/carb jetting to suit.

I thought about and actually had bought cams for the 550, but after consulting with a rider who KNOWS the 550s. He said there was power to be had, but it pushed the ridability range higher in the rpm range and made for a peakier power band, along with whatever tuning nightmares might occur.

I decided if I really wanted faster I should simply buy faster or else be happy with what I had. I sold the cams. I was happy with the performance without any headaches. I can wing it along all day from 6000-8000 without a worry, so why screw with it.

Besides I'd have to get a ZRX1100/1200 and that would just bring on the fines and license points.

[Biker Dash]

The key thing with most modifications is that the engine starts getting stress not engineered into the design.
If done on a well engineered (as in over-engineered) engine, and done properly, using high quality parts and not over-doing things, you can easily mod an engine to make good gains in power.

Honda's stock play engines are way understressed as built.
The honda Shadow 750 Engines are like that as well. Although there is not a large aftermarket selection for engine performance parts, you can build up a Shadow engine to a respectable level. I feel 80hp measured at the rear wheel is not unreasonable, if done right.

If you get to the point where you intend to do any modifications internally to the engine, it's time to simply go buy a more powerful bike.
Not nessessarly so. There are many reasons someone might want to have more power, but have it in the bike they have. What I wasnt for a power level would be about equal to the Honda Magna 750. Logic would dictate that I should go out and get a Magna. The thing is, the Magna does not fit me as comfortably as the Shadow 750ACE. That, and I do love this bike I have a LOT, and I wish to make it suited even more to how I want it.

Everyone has their own standards and tastes when it comes to bikes. When I see a bike, I see a canvas which I might be able to make it into something I really desire. Others would prefer something totally different, and thats cool.