Beginner riding skills and techniques

[beginner]

In another thread a discussion got started about preferred stopping and starting techniques. My guidance for that comes from Harris Neil's "Motor Lessons" (free 40 page pdf by writing MotorLessons@Hotmail.com). In general he says "placing either foot on the ground, when the motor is in motion, or both feet down while it is stopped, is proof the rider has lost control of the machine. This includes dangling your legs when starting or stopping. Motion, means any movement at all."

He offers an exercise with a length of 2by4 to learn his stopping and starting technique.

1) Approach the board and, using combination braking, bring the motor to a stop so the front tire is centered on the board, and just touching the edge of the board.

2) Only when fully stopped, extend your left foot (and only your left foot) to support the motor.

3) Apply power to the rear wheel through the use of the friction zone of the clutch; and controlled by the throttle and rear brake. This power must be sufficient to carry the front wheel smoothly over the board, but well enough controlled so that you can bring the motor to a stop with the rear wheel against the edge of the board.

4) As soon as you begin the forward movement in step 3, your left foot must come immediately up to the board/peg, and remain there until you stop again.

5) Use the rear brake to stop the motor with the rear tire just touching the edge of the board. Then extend your left foot to support the motor.

6) Using the same coordinated application of power as you did in step 3, begin forward motion so the rear wheel smoothly goes over the board. This must be accomplished so smoothly that the board does not move.

7) During the entire process your head and eyes must be up, with your focus far out in front of you.

Doing the above is harder than it sounds like and definitely teaches the habits it intends but one of the results for me was the bike is so balanced at the stop that it can lean right or left. The solution I found for a left lean every time was to steer and/or lean right if necessary to lean the bike left. I'll write Harris Neil and see if he'll comment on my solution. Perhaps he knows a better way.

Here is my best effort on the 2by4 exercise in an '09 video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXuygZZhg4g

Here is my steering solution to get the bike to lean in a balanced stop. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbvrgnBU2jM

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Snapping the bars to one side while attempting to balance and stop is a bad idea. Better to keep your head and eyes up, complete braking with the right foot and put your left foot down to hold up the bike. One of the tricks to stopping left foot down is to complete downshifting to 1st BEFORE you stop. IF you don't get to 1st before you stop, you'll have to put your right down and then lift your left to select 1st gear.

There are very good reasons to start and stop off the left, primarily that it keeps your right foot on one of your primary controls, the rear brake. The idea being as you stop you can modulate the brake; and as you take off if you suddenly NEED the rear brake it's available to you.

New riders will often find that if they take their right foot off the pegs the bike "surges" which is, in reality, the result of thier releasing pressure on the rear brake.

Don't make stopping and getting a foot down harder than it needs to be. Head and eyes up, smooth operation of the controls, left foot down. Practicing starting and stopping in a parking lot will help with this.

[JasonSK]

In the BRC class we were taught to always be in first gear when making a stop, in the second video you appear to be putting it in first gear.

Also in the BRC we were taught that you shouldn't take your right foot to the ground unless your stopped, since you should be using it to use the rear brake!

[beginner]

In the BRC class we were taught to always be in first gear when making a stop, in the second video you appear to be putting it in first gear.

Also in the BRC we were taught that you shouldn't take your right foot to the ground unless your stopped, since you should be using it to use the rear brake!Obviously I've got to switch feet to change gears if the bike is at rest. When the weather clears may be I'll remake the video with the refinement you suggest. I don't think about quick gettaways because I'm very rarely in traffic with even one car, let alone several.

Snapping the bars to one side while attempting to balance and stop is a bad idea. When weather permits I'll remake the video with the motion more subtle. Never the less the goal is still to keep the bike as straight up as possible until the last moment before putting the left foot out and still making sure the bike leans the way I choose.There are very good reasons to start and stop off the left, primarily that it keeps your right foot on one of your primary controls, the rear brake. The idea being as you stop you can modulate the brake; and as you take off if you suddenly NEED the rear brake it's available to you.For me it just feels right. I should be in control of the bike every millisecond it's moving. Always landing on the left also encourages me to plan and pay attention to stops the same as higher speed situations.

I haven't tried this with in the 2by4 exercise. At the moment my 2by4 is buried under a huge snow pile next to the parking lot.

It's not easy to find youtube videos focused on practiced motor police stopping and moving out but they do what I'm talking about and it looks right and worth working on.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

3:20 on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imrAbLNeFe4

Line yourself up perpendicular to the stalls in a parking lot--practice starting and stopping. I would suggest you do it and pop up to 2nd once in a while so you can practice down shifting as you stop.

[beginner]

Line yourself up perpendicular to the stalls in a parking lot--practice starting and stopping. I would suggest you do it and pop up to 2nd once in a while so you can practice down shifting as you stop.Braking and stopping are not the same thing. I want good braking skills and clean balanced stops.

The parking lot was dry so I make a new version of the stop video. I downshif to 1st before stopping and the steer to the right is more real world, less exagerated. I admire the balanced way the motor police handle their bikes. I can learn to do the same. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZW2UDlsdP8

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Braking and stopping are not the same thing. I want good braking skills and clean balanced stops.


Dude. Come on. Really?

And your stops just look sloppy and frightened--keep your eyes up and don't do the twitchy thing with the bars and see if that helps. I think you're having trouble because you're adding an extraneous step. Try to get it done without flopping the bars.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Looked at your video again and have a suggestion--part of the balance issue you're having is because your 'creeping up' on the stop. See, as you come up we can actively see you trying to control the bike at low speed, the front suspension appears unloaded and you're really just coasting to a stop instead of braking to a stop. (Perhaps you're actually just 'stopping' instead of braking).

Try practicing at higher speed, say 15-25mph and see if that cleans thing up.

[beginner]

And your stops just look sloppy and frightened.I'll improve. I'm not hanging or draging the left foot.

There are other new riders besides me who might practice with a little more encouragement and especially if the experienced riders were setting a good example.

Looked at your video again and have a suggestion--part of the balance issue you're having is because your 'creeping up' on the stop. See, as you come up we can actively see you trying to control the bike at low speed, the front suspension appears unloaded and you're really just coasting to a stop instead of braking to a stop. (Perhaps you're actually just 'stopping' instead of braking).True, the speed is slow, very little brake is needed and there is some wobble because of how slow it is. Fast or slow the bike should always stop to the left unless the rider wants it different.

One more thing Crash. Learning to ride has been three of the best years of my life. I've been patient and thoughtful as I can be and tried to avoid the mistakes and short cuts of the other sports I've done. The only thing that's missing from the fun is talking to other riders about improving skills, the ones who are behind me and the ones who are ahead of me. The place to do that is these message boards. When I try to get that discussion started there is always interference, ridicule, discouraging words. I persist. Eventually one of the message boards might decide that pracitce discussion could be a good thing for the sport and may be a practice catagory would be worth a try and may be give the topic some protection. Perhaps you would be willing to support that?

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Look in the mirror and ask yourself: "Why does this keep happening to me?"

Honest self evaluation is a brutally important part of life. If the same thing keeps happening over and over--don't you want to change the outcome? Or do you expect a different outcome to suddenly appear?

Why does this keep happening to you?

[beginner]

"Why does this keep happening...?"

There's only one online forum with a Practice catagory and, as you know, the forum owner's thrill in life is starting flames and banning people. (He's banned me, and you, and many others.) The other forums have dozens of catagories. Practice is never one of them. The reasons are marketing and riding culture.

When someone asks how to get started riding an instructor jumps in and suggests lessons. That's okay as far as it goes but that's as far as it goes. Discussions about practice are interrupted by riders who don't practice.

In the catagory of hope-springs-eternal the MSF will do a 'naturalistic study' of riding behavior and skills by putting instruments on 100 bikes and analyzing the data. http://msf-usa.org/index_new.cfm?pagename=News&action=display&content=3A825E31-C291-4619-4EE43B36BBFED370 This might give some insight into the contribution of skills, or lack of skills, to safety. I've read that half of rider fatilities happen going wide in turns and losing control in straight line situations. That sounds like unforced rider errors.

[Pepperoni]

when I was first learning, every time I took off I would have two feet hover like training wheels :)

[CaptCrashIdaho]

when I was first learning, every time I took off I would have two feet hover like training wheels :)

That's a dangerous kind of behavior because you'll be tempted to try and catch the bike and can get your foot sucked up into the bike. Also, the feet way out there in the blue actually unsettle the bike. Curious though, what do you think helped you get past it?

[CaptCrashIdaho]

There's only one online forum with a Practice catagory and, as you know, the forum owner's thrill in life is starting flames and banning people. (He's banned me, and you, and many others.) The other forums have dozens of catagories. Practice is never one of them. The reasons are marketing and riding culture.

Actually, I’m not banned there. Why? Because I spoke with the owner and we came to an agreement about the fact I won’t post vids that include wheelies or stoppies. Why? Because he feels that’s too dang dangerous for publication on his site. He feels that HIS site shouldn’t even hint at those behaviors. It’s his playground, if I want to be there I live by his rules. Just like here.

AND it’s an important lesson you need to get your arms around: private individuals run forums. Private individuals have the right to choose who they associate with and who they publish. A “Practice” forum isn’t generally found anywhere—the forum you speak of has a “Improve Your Skills” area. You have your own agenda, your own formula and your own ideas on how to improve your riding. Your opinions are not, shall we say, in the mainstream? Most Forums look to get sound advice out and user’s and owner’s won’t allow inaccurate or dangerous information out. This forum is a classic example of what happens to folks in your position. When discussing the shear/abrasion of Kevlar, you’re welcome to discuss it—BUT—when you get into the “Safety” section and start advocating odd or even dangerous behaviors someone will call you on it. Every time I’ve seen you banned it was for advocating against common best practices like getting trained by professionals or your profound misunderstanding of common motorcycle behaviors. This “countersteering while stopping” is an excellent example of how you find a problem that doesn’t exist, exaggerate it, find an inappropriate/dangerous solution and then push it as a safe and reasonable solution.

When someone asks how to get started riding an instructor jumps in and suggests lessons. That's okay as far as it goes but that's as far as it goes. Discussions about practice are interrupted by riders who don't practice.

Yup. That’s what we do. We advocate for rider safety. As far as riders who don’t practice chiming? Well, that’s life on the web, act the fool? Be treated like a fool. Instructors aren’t going to advocate that riding in figure 8s for 300 hours is going to make you a better, safer rider. Why? Because there is no magic number of repetitions that make you “Safe”. Safe happens in your head. Safe is about situational awareness and keeping yourself out of the soup. Safe is also about having a finely tuned skill set—a well rounded skill set. Your narrow focus on “Lean and Traction”, is so profoundly wrong in it’s approach that we call you on it. Instructors have a public responsibility to act when they see someone giving dangerous information. And I’m sorry, but that’s what you do. Again it’s not about you, it’s about what you say and you don’t get grief until you venture into that area.

If you sold it as a behavior “I do these things over and over and over BUT I LOVE IT!” you would be safe. BUT you have to justify the behavior with this asinine “I’m learning to slide the rear at 5mph” stuff that just is so patently wrong we can’t NOT say something.

I can make up excuses for wheelies and stoppies but in reality? They’re just fun and that’s why I do them. They have some formative value in throttle and brake control but really, trying to sell them as training is pretty damn weak sauce; if I did? I’d expect someone to call me on it.

What you want to do is have a forum section dedicated to you. There’s a fix for that—create your own forum. Then you can say and do anything you want. Until then? Expect to have someone bust your chops when you invent dangerous solutions to imagined problems.

[beginner]

This “countersteering while stopping” is an excellent example of how you find a problem that doesn’t existThere's an opening I'll take. I think the term countersteering creates confusion. There aren't two kinds of steering, only one. On an inline two wheeled vehicle (motorcycle) steering changes the lean angle of the bike. Steering right encourages the bike to lean left. Steer left, the bike wants to lean right. That's true at 2 mph as in my little stopping exercise and it's true at 100 mph. A curving path (turn) happens when the bike maintains a lean angle one side or the other of zero degrees. Countersteering is a buzzword, a short cut.there is no magic number of repetitions that make you “Safe”. Safe happens in your head. Safe is about situational awareness and keeping yourself out of the soup. Safe is also about having a finely tuned skill set—a well rounded skill set.Practice doesn't make you safe. Practice makes you more skilled. However, time spent practicing is less risky than time spent in traffic.Your narrow focus on “Lean and Traction”, is so profoundly wrong in it’s approach that we call you on it."Profoundly wrong" is not a response on the merits. Try something more thoughtfulInstructors have a public responsibility to act when they see someone giving dangerous information.Encouraging riding lessons but discouraging practice is not a good expression of that responsibility.What you want...What I want is a section on one of the forums where practice can be discussed without interference from people who don't practice. Several others here seem to agree with that idea.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

There's an opening I'll take.

No you won’t. Because now you want to got to the place where you pretend to be the expert. There are 2 ways to steer your motorcycle:

Direct Steering (Turning in the direction of the turn) which happens under 10-12mph.

&

Counter Steering (Turning opposite the direction you want to turn) this begins occurring at speeds greater than 10-12mph.

Your own slow speed videos clearly demonstrate direct steering as you make your figure 8s. Now, if you post a video that clearly shows you countersteering at 4mph—THAT I would want to see.

This is where you approach the edge and end up getting canned. You’re gonna use me to continue a conversation NO ONE wants to have. Frankly? I’m not down with that. I would suggest at this point, you’re approaching dangerously bad information and that isn’t somewhere you want to go. If you want to talk about how much fun you have riding—do it. If you want to rewrite ALL the common language of riding? You’re on your own.

[beginner]

No you won’t. Because now you want to got to the place where you pretend to be the expert.Nobody participating in this discussion is an expert.Direct Steering (Turning in the direction of the turn) which happens under 10-12mph. & Counter Steering (Turning opposite the direction you want to turn) this begins occurring at speeds greater than 10-12mph.Steering left leans the bike right, and visa versa, even at 2 mph. (See video above) If the bike maintains a lean angle right or left of zero degrees then the front wheel will be pointed in the direction of the curving path unless there is significant slip in the rear tire, ie drifting.If you want to rewrite ALL the common language of riding? You’re on your own.I use some different terminology to describe some things differently. The physics doesn't change.

[rexmitchell]

Nobody participating in this discussion is an expert
I would have to disagree with you there. And if Crash isn't considered an expert he should be:thumbsup:

[beginner]

I would have to disagree with you there. And if Crash isn't considered an expert he should be:thumbsup:An expert can respond on the merits just like everybody else. Appeals to authority and personal attacks are a distraction. Crash and I have discussed these things in the past.

Speaking of practice

I slow ride standing on the pegs better than sitting down. Balance should be better sitting because the weight is set lower but it doesn't seem to work that way. Japanese motor police stand in the pegs when they slow ride. Trials riders are balanced riders and they are always standing in the pegs. I don't understand this one yet.

Another discovery this winter. Slow riding on irregular and slippery surfaces is productive. I found that combination on a hard packed snow covered, gravel road with the usual shallow ruts, crown, etc. At a bit above walking speed the front and rear wheels are slipping separately and together in ways I believe are similar to slips that can happen at higher speeds on pavement. I think it's worthwhile to have the first experiences with those slips going slower if possible. I didn't have the confidence to try this until the end of riding season #3.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Nobody participating in this discussion is an expert.Steering left leans the bike right, and visa versa, even at 2 mph. (See video above)

On point of this thread:

What you're doing in the video above is stopping the motorcycle and making a "controlled fall to the left." You are, essentially teaching people to fall to one side by inducing a fall with countersteer while stopped. It is a dangerous practice and something I believe people should avoid.

Since we both agree you are an amateur, ask yourself this: should amateur's be allowed to give unsolicited, inaccurate advice freely without anyone questioning their technique?

Bottomline: your technique here is flawed and dangerous. Please, let's get this thread back on track with a discussion of how the left down first and up last is an excellent skill--not your personal blog.

[beginner]

What you're doing in the video above is stopping the motorcycle and making a "controlled fall to the left." Every lean of the bike towards the ground is a controled fall. The controls are steering, throttle, and upper body weight.

[beginner]

So a board moderator says start a thread in general about developing/practicing riding skills and may be a catagory will be added to the board for that.

[bahtah]

So a board moderator says start a thread in general about developing/practicing riding skills and may be a catagory will be added to the board for that.

I would say that practicing riding skills is necessary to being a better rider. For me that is especially true since I get to ride my snow blower for four to five months of the year. I am a member of GWWRA who offers riding programs although I have not found any close to me yet. I do have their set of CDs which offered some useful information. I also have a CD developed by a motorcycle officer, who does training of motorcycle officers, and it also has lots of good progressive drills you can do to improve your riding. I think it would be interesting to see what others do or don.t with respect to this issue. As for me, I learn something every time I ride.

[rexmitchell]

Moving this thread since I know the other one you started will go down the same road.

[beginner]

I would say that practicing riding skills is necessary to being a better rider. At first my motive for practicing was sheer terror. The bike weighed 10,000 pounds and had the power of a diesel locomotive (240 lbs and 33 hp). I got myself into the most low risk situation I could find, parking lot, and spent a lot of time there on every ride. I'm still not skilled enough for safety's sake but my motive for practicing today is addiction to skill.For me that is especially true since I get to ride my snow blower for four to five months of the year.I'm in Michigan, it's been a snowy winter but there have been days here and there all winter when there was some safe surface to ride on for slow speed practice.I also have a CD developed by a motorcycle officer, who does training of motorcycle officers, and it also has lots of good progressive drills you can do to improve your riding.Describe some of his exercises. A police trainer named Harris Neil will send anybody who writes to him a 40 page pdf he wrote. MotorLessons@hotmail.com The 2by4 exercise is my favorite from his writing.

[KMWilliams]

This has been VERY enlightening.

Thank you Crash.


beginer, I'm on your side, to a point. I feel many threads tend to drift into race tract techniques, something I'm interested in, has it's place, but could give new riders bad ideas. Things like breaking techniques in a curve should be avoided by a new rider. I agree with you that a forum with a brand new rider focus is a good idea.

There are enough highly experienced riders on this site to call BS on bad advice. Crash happens to be one. If you can not except that, then you will suffer the same fate as before. Perhaps you should look introspectively at your self and reevaluate WHY you are posting here. Perhaps you should take Crash's criticism and use it to be a better rider.




Edit, Rex, what just happen?

[bahtah]

At first my motive for practicing was sheer terror. The bike weighed 10,000 pounds and had the power of a diesel locomotive (240 lbs and 33 hp). I got myself into the most low risk situation I could find, parking lot, and spent a lot of time there on every ride. I'm still not skilled enough for safety's sake but my motive for practicing today is addiction to skill.I'm in Michigan, it's been a snowy winter but there have been days here and there all winter when there was some safe surface to ride on for slow speed practice.Describe some of his exercises. A police trainer named Harris Neil will send anybody who writes to him a 40 page pdf he wrote. MotorLessons@hotmail.com The 2by4 exercise is my favorite from his writing.

I don't think this site is the place for a new rider to "learn how to ride". Proper riding skills are not a matter of opinion. There are many riding programs available for new and experienced riders. I think providing information as to where riding skills programs are available may be of interest to a new rider since most of these program can, if taken, result in some savings for the cost of insurance. For me to pass along what an instructor has said on his/her CD is subject to my interpretation and not really a good idea. The better idea, for a new rider, is do some research, find a class or CD and start practicing.

[beginner]

I'm interested in talking to other riders who practice about practice. It shouldn't matter whether they are experienced or inexperienced. It would be nice to have some of both. If Crash practices he doesn't discuss it. Do you practice?I don't think this site is the place for a new rider to "learn how to ride".There is no danger of that because the only way to learn the skills is to practice the skills. A particpant named Misti suggested there be a catagory to discuss skills and techniques. How can that be controversial?

[KMWilliams]

I The better idea, for a new rider, is do some research, find a class or CD and start practicing.

+1
The BRC is a really good starting point. After that, saddle time in the real world and keeping a proper perspective. I feel the keeping a proper perspective is what gets many new riders in a lot of trouble.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Practice? Nope. Never. Not me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ1SmTqyfc0

+1
The BRC is a really good starting point. After that, saddle time in the real world and keeping a proper perspective. I feel the keeping a proper perspective is what gets many new riders in a lot of trouble.

Absolutely. Maybe the brightest thing anyone has said in this thread.

[KMWilliams]

I'm interested in talking to other riders who practice about practice. It shouldn't matter whether they are experienced or inexperienced. It would be nice to have some of both. If Crash practices he doesn't discuss it. Do you practice?

I think this is directed to me. ?

Yes, I have used the BRC guide and set up practice sessions in the church parking lot. I have also used suggestion from Crash's videos. You know, the CaptCrashIdaho videos on You-tube?

Currently I'm looking to set up a "cop course" for some low speed practice.

Any fool can go down the road at 80mph. A tight turn on a cruiser at sub 5mph, with your feet on the floor boards, takes control.



FYI, Five below has cheap plastic cones, 10 for 5 bucks.

[primalmu]

Harris Neil? Never heard of him. However, I have heard of Jerry "Motorman" Palladino. If you've never heard of him, do a google search for his Ride Like a Pro DVDs. I've never heard him talk about this countersteer to initiate a fall to the left mumbo-jumbo, and I'd much rather place my trust in a guy who owns a motorcycle training business, has trained motor officers for years, and is now on his 5th iteration of his excellent Ride Like a Pro DVDs, than put my trust in a guy who sends out a 40 page ebook from his hotmail account.

[beginner]

Currently I'm looking to set up a "cop course" for some low speed practice. FYI, Five below has cheap plastic cones, 10 for 5 bucks.Crash was showing off some flat cones in an earlier video. Perhaps he'll comment about whether they worked and what they cost.

For everyday practice I mark the pavement with a Markal Paintstik in a parking lot where the owner doesn't care. The marks last a month or two.Harris Neil? Never heard of him.There are hundreds of motor police trainers none of us have ever heard of who are qualified to do what they do and to write about it. I like his 2by4 exercise.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Currently I'm looking to set up a "cop course" for some low speed practice.



Little help: http://www.policemotorunits.com/id279.html

And the Motorcops.com website had some good ones but it's not up anymore, you might try googling "Motorcops" and "Cones" or "patterns" and see if someone has it stored somewhere--was a .pdf if I remember.

[KMWilliams]

Crash was showing off some flat cones in an earlier video. Perhaps he'll comment about whether they worked and what they cost.

For everyday practice I mark the pavement with a Markal Paintstik in a parking lot where the owner doesn't care. The marks last a month or two.

I have used soda cans. They work too.




And I though of that BEFORE I saw Crash do it. So there!:p

[CaptCrashIdaho]

I have used soda cans. They work too.

And I though of that BEFORE I saw Crash do it. So there!:p

AND odds are you checked to see if they were empty BEFORE you crushed them...unlike certain other riders...sticky, angry riders...

[KMWilliams]

Little help: http://www.policemotorunits.com/id279.html

And the Motorcops.com website had some good ones but it's not up anymore, you might try googling "Motorcops" and "Cones" or "patterns" and see if someone has it stored somewhere--was a .pdf if I remember.


Book marked.

Thanks!

[rexmitchell]

Crash is a squid! Lol

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Crash is a squid! Lol

Drat! No one would have known if it weren't for those meddling kids!

[Misti]

This is not exactly what I was looking for when I suggested starting Riding Skills and Technique Section....

Back to the OP's original question (if it really was a question about preferred stopping technique)...would you say that someone that doesn't use the rear brake when riding on the street is riding incorrectly?

I rarely use the rear brake when riding (sportbikes) on the street and I never use it when racing (unless I find myself off the track), does that mean I'm doing it all wrong? Do you have to use the rear brake in order to be considered in control of the machine and if so, why?

Misti

[iamjustifyd]

I gotta say that I got into a bad habit of leaning or turning the bars a bit while I'm coming up to a stop. Throws me off balance and I don't like it. I tend to take my foot off the brake before I am all the way stopped and it takes a bit off the brakes before I'm stopped all the way. I've been practicing, while riding, keeping my foot on the brake till I am stopped all the way and keep the bike straight up, including handlebars. I noticed to what Crash has said, I'm coming up to a stop too slow. I do better coming up a bit faster and just stopping where I need to be if that makes sense. I would absolutely hate it if I were riding my nephew and did that stop wrong and we went over. If ever you plan to ride someone I can't see turning your bars at any point at a stop.

[rexmitchell]

This is not exactly what I was looking for when I suggested starting Riding Skills and Technique Section....

Back to the OP's original question (if it really was a question about preferred stopping technique)...would you say that someone that doesn't use the rear brake when riding on the street is riding incorrectly?

I rarely use the rear brake when riding (sportbikes) on the street and I never use it when racing (unless I find myself off the track), does that mean I'm doing it all wrong? Do you have to use the rear brake in order to be considered in control of the machine and if so, why?

Misti

Nice point here, I do the same, I rarely use it on the street or track, only in an emergency situation. I will say I can always spot a new rider by how they stop at a traffic light, you can tell when people put out or drag their feet that they think they are going to fall over.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Style of bike can play heavily into this--on the Supermoto I use the rear for slow speed and off road; in most cases it's just back there and doesn't get a lot of work because of the weight transfer to the front. On the Phantom (cruiser) it's a different story--my best stops employ both brakes because there's not near the transfer to the front wheel. In fact, I was very disappointed with the Phantom's brakes until I started getting fairly aggressive with the rear! Now I can stop that cruiser on a dime.

Comes back to getting out and into a safe environment where you can practice and refine your techniques.

[iamjustifyd]

I feel better using the back brakes on the Bandit cause they suck all the way around!

[beginner]

I will say I can always spot a new rider by how they stop at a traffic light, you can tell when people put out or drag their feet that they think they are going to fall over.The 2by4 exercise gets rid of that habit.

[rexmitchell]

The fronts on my R1 provide nearly all braking power. Speaking of brake lines, get some steel braided lines and you can find out what stopping is really about. An entire world of difference from OEM lines.

[Stainlesstehle]

WOW! Beginner - what works for me when I come to a stop, I just drop my left leg down and the sudden change in balance will drop the bike to the left.
As stated stopping from a faster speed helps rather than crawling to a stop. ( I tend to have trouble occasionally in traffic while barely creeping along.)
Stopping shorter? may help answer your question.

While I also don't condone steering at the last moment as safe practice either, I ask that you try these suggestions to see if it helps you at all, then let us know.

1) come up to the stop at a quicker pace
2) being balanced at the end, put your left leg down and see if it doesn't
lean left for you.




Is this more what you expected?

[CaptCrashIdaho]

The fronts on my R1 provide nearly all braking power. Speaking of brake lines, get some steel braided lines and you can find out what stopping is really about. An entire world of difference from OEM lines.

Another tack is to change to a softer compound brake pad--but remember--if you're going to steel lines (good idea) and changing compounds (good idea) then you're going to be surprised by the difference in feel and force so don't make your first big stops on the road--find a safe place to get some practice in.

[iamjustifyd]

I have stainless lines, no help. It's the one thing that really irritates me about this bike. Which pads can ya'll suggest that would be softer? I like real sticky brakes.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Ask at the shop. Something sintered probably. Just let them know make, model and year and ask for options.

[beginner]

what works for me when I come to a stop, I just drop my left leg down and the sudden change in balance will drop the bike to the left.May be when you stick that foot out you lean to the outside slightly. Harris Neal advises that the left foot shouldn't come off the peg until the last possible moment. I don't think the left foot should be stuck out like landing gear.As stated stopping from a faster speed helps rather than crawling to a stop.True but not always an option. The bike should lean left regardless.While I also don't condone steering at the last moment as safe practice...Not too many safety issues at 1 or 2 mph.being balanced at the end, put your left leg down and see if it doesn't lean left for you.If I'm typical, riders in their first few years are not keeping the bike as close to zero degrees going straight as they might in later years. Adding to the difficulty is not being able to feel which side of zero the bike is on as it stops. May be that feel comes in later years. May be steering right to get the left lean is a transitional technique that goes away as skills improve.

In the first two years I had an exagerated counter balance, lean to the outside in Uturns and figure 8s. As my balance improves that exageration is reducing and I'm as likely to be sitting over the bike as leaned to the outside.

[porange]

No matter if I'm coming to a stop at a red light after going 45mph, or if I'm lulling along behind some cars in traffic and slowly crawling to a stop I do the following: head and eyes up, don't look down or to the side, use both brakes, and bring my left foot down just as the bike stops.

There is no foot dragging or hovering, or any turning of the handlebars to lean the bike. As I start to pull away, left foot comes up to the peg immediately.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

If I'm typical, riders in their first few years are not keeping the bike as close to zero degrees going straight as they might in later years. Adding to the difficulty is not being able to feel which side of zero the bike is on as it stops. May be that feel comes in later years.

Trust me. You're atypical.

Part of the issue that possibly is causing you issues is the fact your bike appears too tall for you--that and by obsessing on minutiae you're actually blocking your learning curve. By that I mean that as you come to a stop you're thinking soooo hard about what you're doing that it actually PREVENTS you from doing it.

[rexmitchell]

The 2by4 exercise gets rid of that habit.

Never needed to do any "exercises" to learn how to stop. Actually come to think about it, I never payed attention to how I stopped when I first started riding. I took the BRC after riding street for almost a year. The instructor laughed at me for even participating and suggested I come to their track days instead. I only did the class to waive a ticket and the driving portion of the DMV test here. You are over analyzing a simple but also complex riding aspect. Practice will help you to get comfortable in what works best for you. No book or other person can tell you what you will like best. Which foot I stop with depends alot on the road condition where I am at. If I am on a hill I might use a different foot than if I am on flat ground. Doesn't mean I don't know what I am doing or that I am doing anything wrong. Flat ground there is really no point of holding on the brake the entire time at a stop light.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Rex, you're touching on a problem called "Hyper-Obedience", the idea that anything that is done must be done to the utmost, the extreme, the perfect.

It's a serious issue for new riders, most get past it with coaching. Some don't. The obsessive fixation on doing everything just perfect leads to a cycle of thought that continually looks for minutae to do just perfect.

This is the mindset that destroys riders on the range. I haven't counseled a lot of people out of a class but I get nervous when I see a person struggling with something as simple as how to turn the bike off!

[Badlands-4-2]

Great thread Crash. Lots of good info. I will keep up on this oe looking for updates, and as soon as all the stupid snow melts I will be out practicing!

[rexmitchell]

Rex, you're touching on a problem called "Hyper-Obedience", the idea that anything that is done must be done to the utmost, the extreme, the perfect.

It's a serious issue for new riders, most get past it with coaching. Some don't. The obsessive fixation on doing everything just perfect leads to a cycle of thought that continually looks for minutae to do just perfect.

This is the mindset that destroys riders on the range. I haven't counseled a lot of people out of a class but I get nervous when I see a person struggling with something as simple as how to turn the bike off!

I didn't learn how to ride my motorcycle practicing in a parking lot or using any kind of drills. Once I was comfortable enough to ride on the street(which I did almost immediately) I took it easy and rode my neighborhood. Like I mentioned before, reading a book will not teach you everything you need to know(or what is best for your). Getting out and finding which technique works best for you will.

[Stainlesstehle]

I didn't say hang it out like landing gear, LOL. I meant once I stop moving, I put it down and the bike will follow.
Not too many safety issues at 1-2 mph? Experience will eventually teach you otherwise.
The bike will want to keep itself at 0 degrees. I'm talking about in practice, in a parking lot or whatever. Come to the stop from a higher speed, I don't mean 30, more like 15-20 mph. Then stop a little quicker than you did in the video. If you are going in a straight line, the bike will want to hold itself at 0 degrees.
Way back at the beginning you said it could go left or right-correct. It will go to the left if you put your left foot down as soon as you stop.

All I can say is to try it and don't over think it. Nothing against the board idea, but I think you're trying soo hard to get it right, you are forgetting to have fun. Practice the basics and the rest should come to you.

Where are you in MI? I'd be happy to show you what I'm talking about, maybe it would seem easier then.

[ScrumDown]

Some good tips/techniques/ideas in this thread.

Thanks.

[KMWilliams]

May be steering right to get the left lean is a transitional technique that goes away as skills improve.
.

Will someone please explain this to me? At sub 12mph, turning the handle bars left has always resulted in the bike leaning left. Counter steer only works above 12mph for me.

Or am I reading this wrong. :confused:

[KMWilliams]

By that I mean that as you come to a stop you're thinking soooo hard about what you're doing that it actually PREVENTS you from doing it.

I'd call it, Over thinking a problem.


This is not exactly what I was looking for when I suggested starting Riding Skills and Technique Section....
...

Misti

I'd start your own thread Misti. That one I'll just sit back and read per normal. You give lots of good info.:71baldboy:

[primalmu]

Gotta love solutions to non-existent problems.

[beginner]

Never needed to do any "exercises" to learn how to stop. Actually come to think about it, I never payed attention to how I stopped when I first started riding. I took the BRC after riding street for almost a year.Apparently the first lesson in motor police training is stopping and starting the bike(2by4).You are over analyzing a simple but also complex riding aspect. Practice will help you to get comfortable in what works best for you.Understanding bike dynamics along with the practical skills is part of the enjoyment of riding. It's enjoyable to have skills beyond "comfortable", beyond minimal. Moto gymkhana skills don't come from riding in traffic, the same for motor police skills.Rex, you're touching on a problem called "Hyper-Obedience", the idea that anything that is done must be done to the utmost, the extreme, the perfect. It's a serious issue for new riders, most get past it with coaching. Some don't. The obsessive fixation on doing everything just perfect leads to a cycle of thought that continually looks for minutae to do just perfect. This is the mindset that destroys riders on the range. I haven't counseled a lot of people out of a class but I get nervous when I see a person struggling with something as simple as how to turn the bike off!You make videos that show off your skills then ridicule others who want skills on the bike.

[primalmu]

You make videos that show off your skills then ridicule others who want skills on the bike.

Except Crash hasn't been riding for only 3 seasons. He also hasn't recommended potentially dangerous techniques.

[rexmitchell]

Understanding bike dynamics along with the practical skills is part of the enjoyment of riding. It's enjoyable to have skills beyond "comfortable", beyond minimal.

Umm, my riding skills are a tad bit beyond practical, comfortable and minimal:rolleyes:, as for bike dynamics...I feel the same. :thumbsup:

You make videos that show off your skills then ridicule others who want skills on the bike

I also find it quite strange that you would say this about crash's videos, seems your the only one on this entire site that thinks this. Everyone else has been appreciative of his contributions, maybe you should too. As your posts demonstrate, you are a new rider who tries to pick apart someone technique of teaching. If you don't like it, so be it, don't sit here and tell everyone its wrong and your way is better, when its clearly not.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Moto gymkhana skills don't come from riding in traffic, the same for motor police skills.

And you're right, they don't JUST come from work in traffic they are an amalgam of training, traffic & time. See this is the fundamental place where your path strays into the unreasonable. A well rounded rider (insert wieght joke here) like an LEO can do it all. Fast when fast is needed, slow when slow is needed and alert at all times. That viceral connection to the bike, in ALL areas of riding is what makes LEOs soooo good. You seek to do one thing over and over and over and over and then refuse to move to the next, instead you turn inward to an even more microscopic worry. If I were coaching you I'd offer that you STOP doing figure 8's and move to more complex tasks--like cloverleafs and wedding rings and the In & Out box. The bike will become more stable with a little speed and you'll get a better work out.

Riding in traffic is all about riding the bike without thinking about it--about the automatic place where you look and go and don't debate the little tiny things you seem to obsess on. A Motor Officer in traffic is a beautiful beast to behold, they FLOW, they react before things happen and they just are soooo...they ARE the moment because they are in front of the moment. They don't worry about getting their left foot down, they JUST DO IT. And they practice and play and learn.


You make videos that show off your skills then ridicule others who want skills on the bike.

The vids are there to help. In your case, here and elsewhere I have a moral responsibility to help other human beings. And I try. That's why I'm suggesting other exercises for you to try. IF you insist on trying to convince others to use your untested, unproven and dangerous 'flop the bars' nonsense then my responsiblity to warn them outwieghs my responsibility not to hurt your feelings.

If you want to ride in figure 8s until you're old and doing it in your electric wheelchair? Go ahead. Just don't hold them up as the end all, be all training tool which they aren't.

Practice is good. Practice should have a goal. Practice should occassionally be supervised and feedback given. What more do you want me to say?

[beginner]

Umm, my riding skills are a tad bit beyond practical, comfortable and minimal:rolleyes:, as for bike dynamics...I feel the same.I wouldn't know anything about your skills. I didn't comment on them.

I also find it quite strange that you would say this about crash's videos, seems your the only one on this entire site that thinks this. Everyone else has been appreciative of his contributions, maybe you should too. As your posts demonstrate, you are a new rider who tries to pick apart someone technique of teaching. If you don't like it, so be it, don't sit here and tell everyone its wrong and your way is better, when its clearly not.Where have I criticized Crash's videos or teaching methods? (I did kid him about the flying foot maneuver in the braking video.) I don't appreciate the personal attacks, would you?

I have 3 seasons and may be 1500 hours of moving time behind me. May be 500 of that in PLP. I make videos and put them on youtube. Whatever I can or can't do is on display in the most recent videos. Today I'm sure I could ride my own bike through any police patterns without touching a cone or putting a foot down. (I'm also sure I couldn't do their speeds yet.) Three years ago I thought even that would never be possible for me. If I'm right it's all because of PLP time.

[Misti]

This is not exactly what I was looking for when I suggested starting Riding Skills and Technique Section....

Back to the OP's original question (if it really was a question about preferred stopping technique)...would you say that someone that doesn't use the rear brake when riding on the street is riding incorrectly?

I rarely use the rear brake when riding (sportbikes) on the street and I never use it when racing (unless I find myself off the track), does that mean I'm doing it all wrong? Do you have to use the rear brake in order to be considered in control of the machine and if so, why?

Misti

Beginner, you never answered any of my questions.....

Misti

[murphyshuman]

Crash....I love your video's, Keep it up! (I also enjoyed the book) Misti, good advice and tough questions from time to time, beginner, get out and experience riding, 500 hour in the parking lot? And you think your a good rider? Get over it and ride to have some fun, stop trying to teach.

[beginner]

Beginner, you never answered any of my questions.....
MistiYou didn't ask me any questions. If you mean what's above? The person you need to ask about something like that is Crash, he's an expert.

A few days ago I started doing 14' diameter figure 8s in second gear, no clutch, no brake. Today I tried it with one hand steering and was surprised to find I could do it, a bit rough but not too bad for the first session. I'll work on this for a couple months to pretty it up then make another video and delete this one. One hand steering is less accurate so you're forced to be more careful with throttle and body weight. That's what makes one hand work worthwhile for me. If a beginner can do this it can't be very difficult. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w-jSXDYcjU

[murphyshuman]

Really? you do realize that safety requires both hands on the controls right?

[CaptCrashIdaho]

The Lady asked YOU a direct question about rear brake use. This thread isn't about US watching YOU in a behavior that appears to have no value except for your own self-gratification, it's supposed to be a discussion of riding technique.

A gentleman would answer her question instead of posting video of himself pleasuring himself with one hand.

[rexmitchell]

The Lady asked YOU a direct question about rear brake use. This thread isn't about US watching YOU in a behavior that appears to have no value except for your own self-gratification, it's supposed to be a discussion of riding technique.

A gentleman would answer her question instead of posting video of himself pleasuring himself with one hand.

LOL:D

[beginner]

You seek to do one thing over and over and over and over and then refuse to move to the next, instead you turn inward to an even more microscopic worry. If I were coaching you I'd offer that you STOP doing figure 8's and move to more complex tasks--like cloverleafs and wedding rings and the In & Out box. The bike will become more stable with a little speed and you'll get a better work out.I'm not looking for a coach, just a conversation about practice. If you need a workout do all your exercises standing on the pegs. The patterns that require cones I might to a couple times a year. Uturns and figure 8s can be done without cones. There can be dozens of variations of both.A Motor Officer in traffic is a beautiful beast to behold, they FLOW, they react before things happen and they just are soooo...they ARE the moment because they are in front of the moment. They don't worry about getting their left foot down, they JUST DO IT. And they practice and play and learn.They are disciplined and they practice. I'll never catch up with most of them but in some more years I should be able to get my skills to the level of the average motor cop, allowing that they ride bigger bikes and in traffic.What more do you want me to say?Make a video of a normal practice session, what you do to improve your own skills. I'd like to see that.

My answer about sport bikes, race tracks and brakes is, if you ask someone who thinks they know the answer, don't trust what they say. Better to figure it out for yourself.

[rexmitchell]

My answer about sport bikes, race tracks and brakes is, if you ask someone who thinks they know the answer, don't trust what they say. Better to figure it out for yourself.


So why all the discussions if you think its better to figure it out yourself?

[CaptCrashIdaho]

My answer about sport bikes, race tracks and brakes is, if you ask someone who thinks they know the answer, don't trust what they say. Better to figure it out for yourself.

And THAT is precisely the thing that got you banned at all the other forums you've been banned at. You refuse to listen to the voice of experience and instead present yourself as the humble messiah who, though not as skilled as those great ones who went before, would gladly show us how YOU have discovered the way to happiness.

It's why you get banned soooo damned often. You are, and continue to be, a danger to yourself and others. What you're doing here is akin to "view whoring"--you're using this forum to create views of your YouTube vids. By being a Troll, you get attention and it IS fascinating to see you thrive on negative attention, but you're really the saddest sort of whore there is: you thrive on ANY attention at all.

I would offer to Misti, my apologies because I believe her idea of a "Hone Your Skills" section is a reasonable one. I know that in the past there's been concern about too many sections but I think that a section devoted to honing your chops would be useful. Unfortunately it's clear that you would view such a section as a chance to abuse something for your personal gratification.

Kind of a shame, you're killing the thing you want AND you're abusing the owner's good will by using his forum as your private blogspot.

So, in a last attempt:

How do you use your rear brake, and practice it's use?

[beginner]

So why all the discussions if you think its better to figure it out yourself?A good discussion on this topic is riders talking about what they do not telling other people what to do. Regardless, until I understand it for myself I'm skeptical. When I think I understand it I'm skeptical of myself. 40 drops including 4 practicing on pavement, a couple of broken ribs, a bruised foot, and some broken bike parts keeps me humble and skeptical.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

.. 40 drops including 4 practicing on pavement, a couple of broken ribs, a bruised foot, and some broken bike parts...

...should have alerted you to the idea that you clearly aren't getting done by yourself and some professional help might be in order.

[rexmitchell]

40 Drops? Honestly, you should find another sport/hobby/activity. You have no business on a motorcycle.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Actually, play it for all it's worth don't forget:

A Law Enforcement Officer attempted to stop you and you crashed while fleeing.

(Really, you can tell that story and bend it that way for street cred OG. The Man was oppressing you and you fought the law! Running was the righteous thing to do!)

[beginner]

How do you use your rear brake, and practice it's use?That question I can answer. Almost all my braking is off road. The rear brake is handy for keeping the back end in the back on steep descents. I can check traction on decents by a quick lock of the back wheel. I don't need brakes much on the flat but when I use them I TRY to use both but often don't, bad habit. Sometimes the rear brake is nice for fiddling with lean angle on the crowded single tracks or doing chicken Uturns in a road. I prefer Uturns with the correct speed going in with no brake or clutch needed.

When I use the rear brake for any slow speed turns I call them chicken turns. I practice them occaisionally in the parking lot and off road.

Inspired by your recent braking video I did some higher speed parking lot stops and tried to apply the front and rear together. My braking was MUCH improved, not because I've been practicing with the brakes, but because I've gotten better at keeping the bike standing straight up, good for braking, and by having better feel for traction so I know how much brake to apply.

40 Drops? Honestly, you should find another sport/hobby/activity. You have no business on a motorcycle.Most of those drops were in years 1 and 2 and mostly because of the 36" seat my trusty local dealer insisted would be perfect for me. Definition of a dirt bike, something you drop. The parking lot drops were me finding the traction limits. A nice thing about year three, only a few drops, all harmless.

[primalmu]

Wow, 40 drops?? I haven't had ONE in my three years of riding, and it sounds like I have much more street experience than you. Broken bones? Bruises? Wow, all that practice really seems to be workin' for ya...

[beginner]

Wow, 40 drops?? I haven't had ONE in my three years of riding, and it sounds like I have much more street experience than you. Broken bones? Bruises? Wow, all that practice really seems to be workin' for ya...When you make a mistake you remember the lesson better if you also dropped the bike. If there's a way get some time dirt riding, it's educational. Do you practice? Make a video and put it on youtube.

[Stainlesstehle]

So how many of these drops were street riding/practicing?
I haven't noticed anyone TELLING you what to do, they made suggestions.
Most of the people trying to help are also instructors of this fine sport. Naturally they have some input that can help.
If you are going to be skeptical of proven techniques that are older than you are, then you really don't have any business being on the road.

Maybe I'll learn to type faster if I rearrange the letters on my keyboard- no, I just need to practice more and LISTEN to tips from people that type faster than me.

[beginner]

So how many of these drops were street riding/practicing?One drop losing traction in front on sand on a paved road. One in practice slipping on silica beads dropped by a line painting truck (amazing stuff, almost invisible white haze, slick as ice, inspect your practice area before every session), twice exceeding traction limits in the rear in slow turning practice. The rest were off road drops. All the above below 12 mph.Most of the people trying to help are also instructors of this fine sport.All instructors practice so they might talk about their practice. Do you practice?If you are going to be skeptical of proven techniques that are older than you are, then you really don't have any business being on the road.I use roads to get around the farm. Before I accept anything new I practice it in a low risk situation to see for myself. If it's beyond my ability to safely practice then it's beyond my ability.

[rexmitchell]

When you make a mistake you remember the lesson better if you also dropped the bike. If there's a way get some time dirt riding, it's educational. Do you practice? Make a video and put it on youtube.

Remembering a mistake better because you dropped your bike is nonsense. How the hell does that help you remember a mistake? Does that mean if you get hit by a car because you ran a red light you will remember your mistake only because you got run over? No. Dirt riding and street riding are two different beasts. You should not learn one way thinking it will transfer over to the other. Braking, cornering, body position and lean are all different from street to dirt

[ninjaridaz]

hyper-obedience....minutiae I can't tell you how much this pleases me.

[beginner]

Remembering a mistake better because you dropped your bike is nonsense. How the hell does that help you remember a mistake? Does that mean if you get hit by a car because you ran a red light you will remember your mistake only because you got run over? No. Dirt riding and street riding are two different beasts. You should not learn one way thinking it will transfer over to the other. Braking, cornering, body position and lean are all different from street to dirtThe risk of droping the bike can never be eliminated. The risk of being hit by a car is easily eliminated by not riding where there are cars. Riding by itself is a low risk activity. It seems to me the risk comes from where you ride and how fast you ride.

Balancing the bike uses the same motor balance system that's used for walking, etc. It learns from direct experience and has it's own way of remembering. If you could educate your motor balance system by reading books or talking to people may be practice wouldn't be necessary.

I like pavement for learning to lean the bike. I like dirt for learning traction. That's my experience. I doubt even an expert could change my mind about that. Are you an expert?

[CaptCrashIdaho]

One night, watching TV you see a commercial. A gentleman appears on the screen and says:

"Hey Ya'll! I'm Business Beginner! In the last 3 years since I decided to become a small business man EVERY SINGLE business I've started has failed. Yup, that's right! Failed! I've been sued, bankrupt, washed up and wiped out. In fact, I've lost 40 businesses! Now, I'm willing to share that sea of knowledge with you!

No, I'm not a lawyer nor a businessman; in fact, I've had no formal training in business at all! BUT everyday I find a new way to fail. I'm hosting a perpetual seminar on "How to be Successful in Business" downtown all week. Don't miss this chance to talk with other untrained and unschooled business successes like me, today!"

Now, remember that listening to this guy will only cost you money--not your life would you pay for that info? Would you give that guy a soapbox?

There's a reason I'm more interested in hearing from primalmu about his technique for 3 years of riding safely...

[OTD]

Remembering a mistake better because you dropped your bike is nonsense. How the hell does that help you remember a mistake? Does that mean if you get hit by a car because you ran a red light you will remember your mistake only because you got run over? No. Dirt riding and street riding are two different beasts. You should not learn one way thinking it will transfer over to the other. Braking, cornering, body position and lean are all different from street to dirt

:coffeescreen:Yeah that comment made me laugh outloud.


Kinda like sayin' but if I do saw off one finger with the skillsaw I will be less likely to do it again.:rolleyes:

[JROBER]

beginner you are in need of a MSF course.
If your going to jump on forums like this one and chat about your riding issues you should be more open to listening to what others have to say.

[KMWilliams]

I'm not looking for a coach...

I'll never catch up with most of them but in some more years I should be able to get my skills to the level of the average motor cop,...

, if you ask someone who thinks they know the answer, don't trust what they say. Better to figure it out for yourself.


These are three common themes I have picked up on form you. If you believe you will never get as good as someone else, you are correct. It's call a self fulfilling prophecy.





Getting some popcorn and subscribing.

[beginner]

Practicing riding skills and techniques is the topic of the thread. Does anybody practice?

Another way to fit practice in is to do a seaonsal instead of daily approach. Cold weather is a fine time too focus on slow speed practice. There's no wind chill problem at slow speeds. I'm moving in that direction. From December through mid May my trails are mostly closed so that's the practice time. When the trails are good I practice less.

If you believe you will never get as good as someone else, you are correct.If I can keep on the same as the last three years I'm confident I can be a reasonably polished rider. Even if I was a contender for elite status, probably not, I'm not going to pay those dues. Do you practice?

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Even if I was a contender for elite status, probably not, I'm not going to pay those dues.

:confused: Standby pizza! Fish gill! :thumbsup:

[KMWilliams]

Self-fulfilling prophecy


A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback between belief and behavior. Although examples of such prophecies can be found in literature as far back as ancient Greece and ancient India, it is 20th-century sociologist Robert K. Merton who is credited with coining the expression "self-fulfilling prophecy" and formalizing its structure and consequences. In his book Social Theory and Social Structure, Merton gives as a feature of the self-fulfilling prophecy: e.g. when Roxanna falsely believes that her marriage will fail and fears such failure will occur that it actually causes the marriage to fail.

The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come 'true'. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning.[1]

In other words, a prophecy declared as truth when it is actually false may sufficiently influence people, either through fear or logical confusion, so that their reactions ultimately fulfill the once-false prophecy.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

I thought grabbing a hold of the non-sequitur rambling was gonna be cool...But KMW you, well...

OUTSTANDING! Wonderful insight.

[rexmitchell]

Riding by itself is a low risk activity. It seems to me the risk comes from where you ride and how fast you ride.

I like pavement for learning to lean the bike. I like dirt for learning traction. That's my experience. Are you an expert?

Riding is not a low risk activity, you honestly have no idea what you are talking about. This should be clear by the 40 drops you have had at low speeds. God forbid you go above 15 mph, how many times are you going to crash???? Also, never once did I say I was an expert. However I know a considerable bit more about riding and motorcycles than you do. For the things I don't know about, I go onto forums and learn them. I don't do what you do and go to a forum and tell other people how to learn something you yourself don't know.

beginner you are in need of a MSF course.
If your going to jump on forums like this one and chat about your riding issues you should be more open to listening to what others have to say.

+100, clearly he needs instruction.

Practicing riding skills and techniques is the topic of the thread. Does anybody practice?

Another way to fit practice in is to do a seaonsal instead of daily approach. Cold weather is a fine time too focus on slow speed practice. There's no wind chill problem at slow speeds. I'm moving in that direction. From December through mid May my trails are mostly closed so that's the practice time. When the trails are good I practice less.

If I can keep on the same as the last three years I'm confident I can be a reasonably polished rider. Even if I was a contender for elite status, probably not, I'm not going to pay those dues. Do you practice?


I practice my riding, its called trackdays. I practice riding at 100+ mph at full lean dragging hard parts on my bike and my knee. If I can handle riding at that speed sometimes only feet away from other riders, any street riding is cake

[T Waffle]

You didn't ask me any questions. If you mean what's above? The person you need to ask about something like that is Crash, he's an expert.

A few days ago I started doing 14' diameter figure 8s in second gear, no clutch, no brake. Today I tried it with one hand steering and was surprised to find I could do it, a bit rough but not too bad for the first session. I'll work on this for a couple months to pretty it up then make another video and delete this one. One hand steering is less accurate so you're forced to be more careful with throttle and body weight. That's what makes one hand work worthwhile for me. If a beginner can do this it can't be very difficult. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w-jSXDYcjU

Turn your head my friend, from the video it looks like you are watching the road. You don't turn your head enough and eyes are pointing to ground.

just my 2cents.

[ScrumDown]

I practice my riding, its called track days. I practice riding at 100+ mph at full lean dragging hard parts on my bike and my knee. If I can handle riding at that speed sometimes only feet away from other riders, any street riding is cake

I know the point you were making. If I may though, I'd like to use it to stress a point. I am "novice" riding a bike, but I am what some consider an expert in other areas of life. I find as soon as you (general usage) think you have something licked and its a cake walk. You can bet money that you will either f@ck up or something will be thrown at you you were not expecting.

As a bikers, we all need to be aware of our surrounding and ride like everyone is out to kill us. But as the same time enjoy it. Otherwise, why else do it?! It's a fine line to walk/ride.

[JBorg]

Granted, I've only been riding for ~6 months, but i'm thinking that "practice" occurs on the road as well as the parking lot. I'll spend an hour or two a month doing figure 8's, emergency stops, etc, but most of my time is going to be riding in a variety of situations required by my planned destination (direction, really). Slow speed stuff is fun to master, and needed in many situations, but every ride is going to require skills that will only come from putting myself in that particular situation.