Too much Work?

[Misti]

I often tell my students that they are doing too much work on the bike. Do you feel like you put too much effort into riding? How could you ride around the track with less effort?

Misti

[porange]

I'm slightly confused.. do you mean they are moving their bodies too much? Shifting weight too much?

[Joe_F]

Are you talking sport bikes, cruisers, not sure what you mean. I just sit back and ride.

[CookinBeans]

"Students"
I'm guessing that means nervous, too much thinking instead of practiced reaction, lack of muscle memory, gripping the bars too hard, etc?

Some people like to learn with their heads more, som ened to be shown and experience the thing more. Everyone needs their own combination and- practice practice practice.

[robow]

How could you ride around the track with less effort?

Go slower.

[Badlands-4-2]

I notice that things seem to go much better when I am very smooth on my inputs. Especially when going faster, taking it easier makes it all go better.

[DirtMcGirt]

I often tell my students that they are doing too much work on the bike. Do you feel like you put too much effort into riding? How could you ride around the track with less effort?

Misti

I feel that there is a fine line between riding and being rode. Getting a good night's sleep and healthy diet would certainly help with response time and just overall vigilance.

[Misti]

I'm slightly confused.. do you mean they are moving their bodies too much? Shifting weight too much?

Depends, sometimes they are moving around on the bike too much overall, sometimes they are gripping the bars too tight or using too much effort to get it turned. There are many reasons why a rider might work too hard on their bike and I was just wondering if any of you ever feel like you are doing too much work?

Are you talking sport bikes, cruisers, not sure what you mean. I just sit back and ride.

Sportbikes, cruisers, dirtbikes, any type of riding. Many riders get very tired and sore from riding because they are using to much effort. I just want to hear from some of you about your own experiences. You say you sit back and ride which is great but do you ever feel like maybe you could have a smoother or more relaxing ride?

"Students"
I'm guessing that means nervous, too much thinking instead of practiced reaction, lack of muscle memory, gripping the bars too hard, etc?

Some people like to learn with their heads more, som ened to be shown and experience the thing more. Everyone needs their own combination and- practice practice practice.

So, do you think that if someone is gripping the bars too hard then all they need to do is practice NOT gripping too hard or might they need to get to the root of WHY they are gripping too hard and try to fix that?

Go slower.

This works well for sure. Often times when we slow down we are able to ride much more relaxed. But what if you want to learn to ride faster? How do you do it without working way too hard?

I notice that things seem to go much better when I am very smooth on my inputs. Especially when going faster, taking it easier makes it all go better.

Really good point, sometimes focussing on being as smooth as possible will help make your riding feel easier overall. Many riders will experience their fastest laps or fastest rides as the ones that didn't feel very fast. We often feel like we are in the zone and that things are going in slow motion.

I feel that there is a fine line between riding and being rode. Getting a good night's sleep and healthy diet would certainly help with response time and just overall vigilance.

Another good point here, thanks.

There are some times when I feel like I am just doing way too much work on the bike, I'm gripping the bars too tight and fighting the flow of things and while it helps some to tell myself to relax and chill out, sometimes I need to really look at specific aspects of my riding to figure out why I can't stay relaxed. For me it usually comes down to some aspect of my visual skills. I'm not looking far enough ahead at the beginning of the turn so I get freaked out that I'm going too fast and I tense up on the bars....

What is your most common reason for getting tense or working too hard while riding?

Misti

[robow]

Master the fundamentals at low speed, then pick up speed.

Ever hear that saying you have got to crawl before you run?

[Blaine]

What is your most common reason for getting tense or working too hard while riding?

This is an interesting question. I never work too hard riding, actually if is very relaxing for me. I become more tense in heavy traffic, rainy days and slick roads, and generally just riding in the city. At times riding in the country at night in deer and cattle areas I find I’m not really tense but very focused.

I remember the first time I got on a bike, it was a great big Honda 90. I didn’t have a clue how to ride a motorcycle so I was extremely tense and a bit scared. However that didn’t last long.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

I believe it's part of being sucked down the rabbit hole. Once a nervous rider starts a feedback loop like:

Did I miss the turn in?
Did I do that right?
Is my wieght distribution correct?
Did I do that right?
Am I overloading the front?
Did I do that right?
Where's the apex?
I'm not doing this right am I?
Did I just pull when I should have been pressing?
I'm not doing this right.
Look at her, she's doing it right.
I can't get that line.
I'm not doing this right am I?
I'm not doing this right.
I'm not doing this right.
I'm not doing this right.

They can end up in real trouble.

Stiff. Tense. Overloaded. A danger to themselves and others. I often tell people that when they are in this mode (and they get there a fair amount in beginning classes) that they need to stop, breath, and work NOT to get sucked down the rabbit hole.

[4Raven]

I work too hard when I am in the mountain areas doing twisties, not nice smooth ones, I am talking those blind turns, hills, bad crowns, and really sharp turns, not to mention drop offs hundreds of feet down. But I am working hard to concentrate on the road...yeah it is fun...but it is serious too sometimes...

[Blaine]

Did I miss the turn in?
Did I do that right?
Is my wieght distribution correct?
Did I do that right?
Am I overloading the front?
Did I do that right?
Where's the apex?
I'm not doing this right am I?
Did I just pull when I should have been pressing?
I'm not doing this right.
Look at her, she's doing it right.
I can't get that line.
I'm not doing this right am I?
I'm not doing this right.
I'm not doing this right.
I'm not doing this right.

Do people really think like that, that would drive me crazy. Comfortable riding needs to be natural, and that only comes with time.

[TCO]

Tell them to do less.

No less than that.

Do nothing.


Watch Forgetting Sarah Marshall.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Do people really think like that, that would drive me crazy. Comfortable riding needs to be natural, and that only comes with time.

Oh man. Do they. It's one of the reasons I'm a big "you're trying too hard!" kinda guy.

[DirtMcGirt]

I have found that thicker-walled grips cause me to "over-grip" And after switching back to thinner-wall grips,the problem wasn't 100% cured but 90% for sure; and other 10% was most likely due to tension and nerves.

I feel that when you begin to doubt your abilities, and over-analyze, you are no longer in the moment, nor are you riding your best. Calculations should be made, but while on the bike, there is no time for day-dreaming or self-critique.

[robow]

Do people really think like that, that would drive me crazy. Comfortable riding needs to be natural, and that only comes with time.

You think that's bad, you would probably have a nervous breakdown if you could see what goes on in my head.

[FLBandit]

The fastest people I've ever ridden with are always the smoothest riders. They look almost like they're in their recliner at home! I've found this hold true on the street, and in the dirt.

[Blaine]

There are only a few things I focus on. In the city is the traffic and what the cages are doing, side streets, parking lot exits, and of course the ones waiting to make a turn in front of me, I always just assume they will. In the country I focus on the sides of the road for dear and other critters, blind corners watch for sand, gravel and rocks in the road.

As for holding on to the bike, very lightly, and if I need to turn a light touch on the bar and she turns. I never think about if I’m hitting a corner too fast, going too fast. My bike is old like me and it is like an old friend, I know what to expect from it, and I don’t go outside of her potential.

I would think if someone is overly focused on their riding technique, they aren’t paying enough attention to the things that can really hurt them.

To me if you can’t relax while you ride it isn’t going to be fun for very long.

[Misti]

Oh man. Do they. It's one of the reasons I'm a big "you're trying too hard!" kinda guy.

I'm a big "you're working too hard!" kinda girl as well. I see it so often where people do think all of those kind of things while riding or they try to do too much or they just work too hard at the basics. I always try to get my students to "do-less."

What specific areas of riding technique could you get people to "do less?"

We have mentioned gripping the bars lighter and being more relaxed overall as one area where riders can benefit from doing less. What are some others?

Misti

[CaptCrashIdaho]

When the tail falls off a 737 they don't just say "The tail fell off". They look for a root cause. IF a rider is working too hard they are probably frightened. The question then becomes: WHY?

Although it may vary from rider to rider the root cause is probably a lack of confidence in a basic skill. I would offer THE most common problem is not looking far enough ahead. By having their eyes locked on a space 30 to 50 feet in front of themselves they are automatically working out of a hole; they are reacting to the world around them not controlling their world. Suddenly things are going faster and faster and you can't process everything...

Kinda like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wp3m1vg06Q

[cardinal]

Go slower.

Great minds see simple solutions. :thumbsup:

If you're experiencing "Helmet Fire" like Capt'n crash was describing, death grip on the bars and super tense, like Misti is talking about, says to me you're pushing just a little too far beyond your skill levels. Slow down and develop those skills, and the confidence that come with them.

[ninjaridaz]

I'm a big "you're working too hard!" kinda girl as well. I see it so often where people do think all of those kind of things while riding or they try to do too much or they just work too hard at the basics. I always try to get my students to "do-less."

What specific areas of riding technique could you get people to "do less?"

We have mentioned gripping the bars lighter and being more relaxed overall as one area where riders can benefit from doing less. What are some others?

Misti
Steering more than once per turn. Of course if you get it wrong, you will have to correct it. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about making steering corrections that are not needed to the point where you end up in the same point without the corrections.

[FLBandit]

Great minds see simple solutions. :thumbsup:

"Helmet Fire" .

I think I had a drink called that once!:biggrin:

[DarkHelmet]

i've watching your style of racing and i believe its like anything else. you either have a feel for it and do it as smoothe as silk,,or you struggle with it and always will and just not meant to do it as well as other can. i met a girl from a dating site who had been riding only a year,,we went out riding and when she turned corners she'd put her foot down and come out of it with a little wobble. or she'd hit the front brakes a little to hard and skid a bit. i hav'nt seen her in a while but she wrote me and told be she cam around a turn at 35 and dumped the bike back in september. said she took the turn to wide.,,,and all i could think was no,,your riding skills suck and you need either more practice or you need to quit riding. but i'm not picking on girls, cause i met another girl after her who rode her own hd nightster fantastic after she had only been riding for 6 months.. it just all depends on who you are.

[ninjaridaz]

Another would be using too much brake and then hard acceleration afterward to make up for it.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Another would be using too much brake and then hard acceleration afterward to make up for it.

An excellent sign that you're behind the moment instead of ahead of it.

[Misti]

When the tail falls off a 737 they don't just say "The tail fell off". They look for a root cause. IF a rider is working too hard they are probably frightened. The question then becomes: WHY?

Although it may vary from rider to rider the root cause is probably a lack of confidence in a basic skill. I would offer THE most common problem is not looking far enough ahead. By having their eyes locked on a space 30 to 50 feet in front of themselves they are automatically working out of a hole; they are reacting to the world around them not controlling their world. Suddenly things are going faster and faster and you can't process everything...


Yes, soooo important to find the root cause of the mistakes. It is one thing to just tell yourself to "go faster" or "just relax" but if you don't know the reasons why you are slowing down too much or death gripping the bars it becomes impossible for you to fix the issue.

I'd agree that a very common mistake is not looking far enough ahead. This can cause all sorts of problems and is a big source of riders "working too hard." Good discussion.

Great minds see simple solutions. :thumbsup:

If you're experiencing "Helmet Fire" like Capt'n crash was describing, death grip on the bars and super tense, like Misti is talking about, says to me you're pushing just a little too far beyond your skill levels. Slow down and develop those skills, and the confidence that come with them.

Slowing down is HUGE in helping you work through your riding problems. I have students that sometimes get frustrated when I ask them to dial down the speed a little bit so they can work on the drills. When their throttle control is jerky and they are rolling off mid turn I ask them, "if you entered the turn a little bit slower would you be able to roll on the gas smoothly throughout the entire turn? Do you think that would make you faster over all?" The key is to slow down a little bit so that you can incorporate the new technique into your own riding, get a good handle on it and then begin to bring the pace back up. If you find yourself reverting to old habits then bring it down a bit....pretty soon you will be riding faster and better.

Steering more than once per turn. Of course if you get it wrong, you will have to correct it. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about making steering corrections that are not needed to the point where you end up in the same point without the corrections.

Yes, this is a big source of riders doing way too much work. They make some kind of mistake that causes the to have to correct and continue to make corrections through the turn. The key here is to figure out what mistakes are causing the steering corrections in the first place and then fix that.

What are the main reasons why people tend to make steering corrections mid corner?

Another would be using too much brake and then hard acceleration afterward to make up for it.

Yep good one, and as CaptCrash said that is usually attributed to not looking far enough ahead or to having a kind of narrow or tunnel vision. When you let your vision shrink down or are looking just past the front tire then your sense of speed is altered and you think you are going much faster than you are. You over brake for the corner and then realize, crap I could have taken that much faster. The key is training your eyes to look not only as far up the road as possible but as wide as you comfortable can as well.

Great discussion, keep it coming!!
Thanks everyone :)

Misti

[ninjaridaz]

What are the main reasons why people tend to make steering corrections mid corner? Misti

Too early of a turn point due to "in too fast," not picking a turn point, slow steering rate.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Bad line selection causes you to apex early, drives you wide before the exit, then bad inputs, and fear make things worse.

Get behind the average rider and watch...that's what they do.

Remember--we are more likely to kill ourselves, by ourselves, by running wide than any other cause.

[ninjaridaz]

Bad line selection causes you to apex early, drives you wide before the exit, then bad inputs, and fear make things worse.

Get behind the average rider and watch...that's what they do.

Remember--we are more likely to kill ourselves, by ourselves, by running wide than any other cause.

That's why I'm such a big fan of the vanishing point technique. It's adaptable to different speeds and skill levels. Developing your sense of speed will also aid in getting your entry speed correct. I must say that following a more skilled rider might not be the best thing for some riders because the more skilled rider can make it look easy and smooth, but when you try to use their lines and entry speed- you are not quite up to the task. It's funny how easy and smooth they make it look when they do it though. Riders in a group have got to disconnect themselves when taking turns and ride through turns as if they were alone- especially if someone more skilled is front of them making it all look smooth and easy.

[Stainlesstehle]

...I must say that following a more skilled rider might not be the best thing for some riders...Riders in a group have got to disconnect themselves when taking turns and ride through turns as if they were alone...

This is true also, I know that I can ride the curves north of me at the posted speed(55) without even changing lane position. I have witnessed some riders when following me (not with me) go way too wide or make sudden changes mid corner almost completely losing control. I figure either they don't know the curve or are not comfortable leaning at that speed. They are most likely newer riders and not ready to trust their bike to hold the road yet.
By the time they get to the next town they are still sweating and noticeably working too hard, even on the strait road.

Like the saying goes- We Need to Ride our Own Ride

[Misti]

Too early of a turn point due to "in too fast," not picking a turn point, slow steering rate.

Absolutely right. Going in too fast is the most common trigger for a rider to turn in too early. Not having a specific turn in point is another reason and slow steering rate will just make things worse. The results of turning in too early are exactly as CaptCrash said, you apex early, run wide and have to make steering corrections to fix the situation.

So, slowing down at the turn entry will help you feel more comfortable running it in a little deeper and taking a later turn in point but how else do you choose where you should turn the bike? How do you know?

Misti

[CaptCrashIdaho]

So, slowing down at the turn entry will help you feel more comfortable running it in a little deeper and taking a later turn in point but how else do you choose where you should turn the bike? How do you know?

Misti

Stay OUTSIDE until you see the exit. Simple. Easy. Nothing fancy about it.

[copkod]

i live in the canyons of colorado, its all work. but i ride nice smooth and consistent. take it nice and easy in the turns. you should be able to maintain your speed without hitting the brakes much. keep a steady pace

[ninjaridaz]

Absolutely right. Going in too fast is the most common trigger for a rider to turn in too early. Not having a specific turn in point is another reason and slow steering rate will just make things worse. The results of turning in too early are exactly as CaptCrash said, you apex early, run wide and have to make steering corrections to fix the situation.

So, slowing down at the turn entry will help you feel more comfortable running it in a little deeper and taking a later turn in point but how else do you choose where you should turn the bike? How do you know?

Misti
When approaching a turn, I use the vanishing point technique if I can't see around a turn. This keeps me at a relatively low speed so my personal steering rate can handle it. I'm a lot faster in turns I can see all the way through. I pick my turn point in relation to the apex of the turn. Ideally, I want to make my steering input and head for the apex(looking at the apex and my turn point using a "wide" view). The 2 step method is my preferred method for this. I choose my entry speed according to my own personal steering rate which is definitely tied to my fear threshold. I understand that survival reactions can grossly affect my ability to practice these techniques so I don't do it at a speed that will trigger them. Really simple- really.:thumbsup:

[markk53]

I often tell my students that they are doing too much work on the bike. Do you feel like you put too much effort into riding? How could you ride around the track with less effort?

Misti

Going off topic since this is in general discuassion and not racing...

Sounds like me talking to my kids in the wood lab.

They're hacking away with a coping saw and I'm trying to get them to use less effort and more finesse. If they're working that hard they're doing something wrong or trying to make the tool do more than it can. Same with filing, low effort is the key.

In both cases the teeth of the saw or file can only cut so much material at a given time, so any effort to do more is wasted and, with the saw, can break the blade. They may be using a saw or file with too fine a teeth-per-inch count, like using a hack saw to cut wood. It works, but not well. The hack saw is 24 tpi where a fine tooth coping saw is 18 tpi and that's a serious difference in both speed of cutting and effort.

Then there is the technique of cutting the curves - sound familiar? - and the correct way to do so. They're fighting trying to make the saw turn by twisting it before they are cutting. The proper method is to make the twist of the wrist to make the blade cut a curve as they pull the saw, cutting material. The blade will change direction as it cuts, not when it is stopped or reversing direction in a non-cutting motion. And when the saw seems to start to bind, they should back off a bit.

Back on topic...

Although I've never gotten track time on pavement and it's been 35 years since the trials/flat track/hare scrambles days, I still remember the old addage that Ken Roberts has said - Sometimes you have to go slow to go fast. I also remember economy of movement and evaluating what need be done. I remember taking time to look for the "short cuts" and tricks to make faster laps while riding the parade lap of a hare scrambles. It seems in many cases if you're working overly hard you need to re-examine what needs to be done, what is being done, and how can it be improved. In racing this can be done in-process. It's like reviewing possibilities at speed in the hare scrambles as the lines change.

Since each road situation has its own characteristics it is hard to give specifics and since I don't have track time or any race technique training I have no specifics for track skills. The road is also different than the track for many varying reasons, from pea gravel to the plant life along the road blocking the view around a corner. Plus safe realistic speeds on the road are far different than racing in most cases.

On the street it is one of those things I've experienced. I remember riding a road in southeast Ohio that is near on par with Deal's Gap. The first time through I didn't particularly like it. Seemed a lot of work. Second time through, knowing a bit more about what I rode before it got easier with a bit of flow. Much like my wood working and metal working experiences if you're expending a huge amount of effort you might just be doing things wrong or have the wrong tool for what you are doing. Picture running a supermoto tight road on a ZX14 or maybe running a winding road on a low slung cruiser.

[markk53]

I had one other thought on this. Sometimes these sorts of riding threads promote overwork. I watched one of those for as long as I was stuck behind the couple of riders.

A woman was riding one of the BMWs, either the single or the twin, being followed by a man on I think a 919 if I remember right. I was behind them on the dual sport, riding a road I regularly rode on my commute to the school where I taught. It's one of the top roads in Ohio, SR 164 from Leesville Ohio to Saleneville, one fine run through the foot hills to the Appalachians.

Back to the situation. I came up on the couple. Clearly I was going by as soon as I could, but in the mean time I got to see a clear example of "too much work". For whatever reason either the woman was going through a lot of effort to shift her body off to the inside of each corner, shoulders and all. Problem was that neither her rate of speed nor clearance requirements required it. She was going through great efforts to do this "racer shift" and likely going slower than she would if she simply rode the corner. Way too much work.

Eventually we hit enough of a stretch where I could move on by, both of them being courteous enough to slow slightly to allow me to do so. I gotta tell you there is no place on that road where a person needs to hang off on a slim bike. Having maybe a few hundred runs over it, I'm pretty confident in saying that. Now if they ever closed the road, cleaned it off, and we got to go full tilt, that might change, but it's a public highway so it ain't gonna happen.

If I'd have been her "tutor" she would have been simply leaning in, maybe doing a simple shift of weight by hanging a knee into the corner or some slight upper body shift to see what that minor shift would do, but really she needed to learn to trust tires first. The partner should have been carefully leading her along at a decent pace, while setting the example and providing a lead for her as well as keeping an eye on what is going on behind him. Just riding along and watching it was kind of painful for me.

By the way I did exactly what I just mentioned back last fall with a new rider on a CBR600 and me on the Zephyr. I led the way and was able to see him gaining confidence and cornering a bit smoother. Granted I could have moved it out and gone significantly quicker in the corners, but it wasn't about me, it was about getting him confidence and providing the lead since I knew the roads and he didn't. We were riding reasonably brisk about half way in and having some serious fun. No need for hanging off, it's road riding and going at speeds requiring that are far too excessive for safety at that point.

As with my friend, for her there was no reason or gain in sliding off the seat, the bike she was on could lean three times as far as she was leaning, without any worries. Lets face it in safe street riding shifting off the saddle is seldom a benefit and even if it is, a rider needs to progress to a point where it is a smooth transition to doing so, not some mechanical effort so slide over, then lean ten degrees into a corner at cruiser speed. She had more to gain by learning to lean and doing easy transitions into and out of corners on that road, along with a few switch backs it offers. Way too much effort for no gain. I sure hope she doesn't always ride winding roads in that same way.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

I As with my friend, for her there was no reason or gain in sliding off the seat, the bike she was on could lean three times as far as she was leaning, without any worries. Lets face it in safe street riding shifting off the saddle is seldom a benefit and even if it is, a rider needs to progress to a point where it is a smooth transition to doing so, not some mechanical effort so slide over, then lean ten degrees into a corner at cruiser speed. She had more to gain by learning to lean and doing easy transitions into and out of corners on that road, along with a few switch backs it offers. Way too much effort for no gain. I sure hope she doesn't always ride winding roads in that same way.

This points to the "over-processing" problem. I read a thread somewhere and the author was concerned that other riders didn't have to "lean over as much" as he did. His impression was they were going around the same turns, faster, and leaning less.

Why? Because he was over estimating his angle of lean. He was afraid to lean the bike over. Often, new riders (and some experienced ones as well) THINK they're carrying big, dangerous speed when, in fact they are putt-putting along and don't need to lean off, and don't need to drag a knee...they're unstable because they are frightened and working too hard...ala' BMW Lady.

[ninjaridaz]

Or she could have been practicing her technique at a speed where she could process her efforts. You never want to learn any technique at a 100%. You really don't want to take public roads that way either.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Or she could have been practicing her technique at a speed where she could process her efforts. You never want to learn any technique at a 100%. You really don't want to take public roads that way either.

Very much agreed, if you're carrying enough speed on a public roadway to necessitate hanging off and flopping a knee out--you're probably a danger to yourself and others; slow down or take it to the track.

[ninjaridaz]

My brother is plenty faster than me. He doesn't like to hang off the bike. He says it's more exciting just to lean the bike over. While I hang off the bike all the time to continually develop and refine the muscle memory. I've tried to point out to him the advantages of hanging off- preserving your available lean angle for emergencies, more stable position on the bike, more traction, etc.

[Misti]

When approaching a turn, I use the vanishing point technique if I can't see around a turn. This keeps me at a relatively low speed so my personal steering rate can handle it. I'm a lot faster in turns I can see all the way through. I pick my turn point in relation to the apex of the turn. Ideally, I want to make my steering input and head for the apex(looking at the apex and my turn point using a "wide" view). The 2 step method is my preferred method for this. I choose my entry speed according to my own personal steering rate which is definitely tied to my fear threshold. I understand that survival reactions can grossly affect my ability to practice these techniques so I don't do it at a speed that will trigger them. Really simple- really.:thumbsup:

I really like the point you make here about picking your turn in point in relation to the apex of the turn. Sometimes you can't see through the entire turn (we all seem to be faster and more comfortable in corners that we can) so looking to the apex point and establishing where you want to be mid corner is great. By choosing where you want to be mid corner (apex) you are able to get a clear idea of where you need to turn the bike in order to make it there. As you mentioned, we call it the two-step technique where as you approach a turn you look into the turn, spot the apex and then turn the bike. This method also helps to set your entry speed correctly because you are already looking into the turn.

Safest method on the street is to take a later apex, running the bike deep into the turn and waiting until you can see through as much of the corner as you can before turning. Again so much of it comes down to your visual skills (how far down the road you are looking and what exactly you are looking at), and a lot of it will come down to your entry speed...pretty hard to run it in deep and wait till you can see the exit of the corner before turning the bike if you are hauling ass in and scared to death that you won't make the turn. :)

Misti

[CaptCrashIdaho]

For clarity, explanation of Apex:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOmyWRx8wfE

[ninjaridaz]

I do try and hold off until the very last possible second before I make my steering input. It's what limiting my entry speed at this point. When the snow goes away, I'm going to have to work on increasing my rate of steering input.

[Misti]

I do try and hold off until the very last possible second before I make my steering input. It's what limiting my entry speed at this point. When the snow goes away, I'm going to have to work on increasing my rate of steering input.
Thanks CaptCrash for clarifying the definition of Apex :D

Ninjaridaz brings up a good point here. The rate at which you steer the bike is going to dictate when and where you are comfortable turning your bike and also where you are going to apex. If two riders turn at the same turn point but one of them turns the bike slowly while the other one turns it very fast they are going to apex at different points.

What are the benefits of increasing your rate of steering (or of being able to get the bike turned quickly) and how can you go about improving your rate of steering?

Ninjaridaz, how are you (specifically) going to work on increasing your rate of steering?

Misti

[ninjaridaz]

Ninjaridaz, how are you (specifically) going to work on increasing your rate of steering?

Misti
Nothing more than getting my forearms horizontal and flicking the bike faster. This is after setting my entry speed, picking my turn point, hanging off. I guess I would need to work on the timing of all of it. Almost forgot, pushing off the outside peg when making my steering input.

[Misti]

Nothing more than getting my forearms horizontal and flicking the bike faster. This is after setting my entry speed, picking my turn point, hanging off. I guess I would need to work on the timing of all of it. Almost forgot, pushing off the outside peg when making my steering input.

That will do it for sure but sometimes even when you get your arms horrizontal and are ready to give a good flick you still don't seem to be turing it any faster.

If you were able to pick out your apex RP sooner and you had a real specific RP to look at, do you think you would feel more confident turning the bike faster? Would having that specific place to look at allow your arms to KNOW just how much they needed to push to get you there?

Misti

[ninjaridaz]

That will do it for sure but sometimes even when you get your arms horrizontal and are ready to give a good flick you still don't seem to be turing it any faster.

If you were able to pick out your apex RP sooner and you had a real specific RP to look at, do you think you would feel more confident turning the bike faster? Would having that specific place to look at allow your arms to KNOW just how much they needed to push to get you there?

Misti

It certainly would make it easier. I would have a specific target to aim for. What do you do if you can't see the apex like if a mountain is in the way. Something specific other than the obvious slow down, ok people.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

It certainly would make it easier. I would have a specific target to aim for. What do you do if you can't see the apex like if a mountain is in the way. Something specific other than the obvious slow down, ok people.

As clichéd as it is--you're answering your own question--there comes a time when lack of vision is gonna suggest slowing down. On a track you KNOW that coming up the hill the track will drop away and bank left, then hard right, so you can delay braking, set up to the outside, drop in and enjoy the ride. Even though you can't see it, you know the road is gonna be clear and well maintained.

Put that same corkscrew on your favorite road and every single time you drop in, you don't know what's waiting around corner after turn in--if you're committed to a course that plans on open, clean road and you suddenly find deer or dogs or diesel...You've got a serious problem because you're using all your resources and have no B plan.

[ninjaridaz]

As clichéd as it is--you're answering your own question--there comes a time when lack of vision is gonna suggest slowing down. On a track you KNOW that coming up the hill the track will drop away and bank left, then hard right, so you can delay braking, set up to the outside, drop in and enjoy the ride. Even though you can't see it, you know the road is gonna be clear and well maintained.

Put that same corkscrew on your favorite road and every single time you drop in, you don't know what's waiting around corner after turn in--if you're committed to a course that plans on open, clean road and you suddenly find deer or dogs or diesel...You've got a serious problem because you're using all your resources and have no B plan.
Way to go Captn Obvious. You could at least put in a "gilding the lilly" colloquialism to make it funny.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Way to go Captn Obvious. You could at least put in a "gilding the lilly" colloquialism to make it funny.

No, it's actually blindingly Captn Obvious. Because you're having trouble grasping why I or Misti aren't going to give you pointers on how to plow into a blind turn on a public mountain road is pretty plain. (I can't speak for Misit but I believe she's quietly wise to say nothing).

Here's a sweet story to illustrate. Back in the day I used to be pretty good at drinking. I don't anymore but I'm thinking about picking it up again. Back in the day the only time I was too drunk to ride was when I forgot to turn the fuel on, ran out of gas and had to push it back to the party I had just left. I dropped it in the flowers at a friends house, called it a "piece of SH*T", went into the house and slept it off on the couch.

Now, if I pick up drinking again, how many ounces of Southern Comfort are too many before I ride?

THAT is the question you're asking.

Here, in the "general motorcycle discussion" the answer, as you point out, is glaringly obvious. Maybe you should be asking in the MOTORCYCLE RACING forum.

[ninjaridaz]

LOL, now that's more like it. Btw, SoCo too sweet. You should try Jack. I still need a "gilding the lily" reference to make it complete.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Yeah but when you're...young you just want something you can mix with any cola OR drink straight in an emergency...