Exhaust, Intake, Maybe Cams, Do I need a Tuner Module? - Motorcycle Forum
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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 09:27 AM Thread Starter
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Exhaust, Intake, Maybe Cams, Do I need a Tuner Module?

I ride two up on our 2007 Ultra Glide most often. The bike is an almost stock 96", 6 speed, with the only modification being the plugs knocked out of the stock mufflers by the previous owner. We bought it in August with 8800 miles. As of now we have 6000 more on it. Over this coming winter I'd like to add a bit more performance without hurting reliability. My plan is to add a full 2-1 exhaust, higher flow intake filter, and possibly a set of mild cams. I am not sure on the cams yet. Might just be exhaust and intake. I'll do the install work myself.

I am expecting I will need to have the dealer do a tune, as I don't have the knowledge or software to do it myself. But being my first FI bike, I am not sure how this works. Do I need to buy an aftermarket tuner to make this work? What will be needed in addition to what I listed to have a reliable, well running bike?

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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 09:50 AM
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Here's what I would do:

First, before you make any modifications, put in a fresh set of plugs and put about a hundred miles on it, then pull the plugs and take a good read off of them. You want to get a good base idea of how the bike is tuned now. If you're not real positive of how to read a plug you can just take a few good clear pictures and post them up here.

Then, make your changes and put in another fresh set of plugs and do the same thing. Before you go spending more coins for a re-flash or a tune you'll want to make sure you even need it. Chances are, you probably will, but why shell out money if you don't have to?

If the bike is running lean you can take it to the dealer and have them re-flash the ECM, or put a SERT (Screamin Eagle Race Tuner) on it, which for all intents and purposes is the same as a re-flash. You can't do either at home.

You can also buy an add on tuner, but if you've never used the software and aren't comfortable working with EFI bikes then it might be a bit much to tackle at this point.

Another good option is to get a Vance and Hines Fuel Pak. This is a tuner that you can easily install yourself and that requires no software or computer to set up. You'll have to get a set of values from V&H for your bike, but it's easy as sin to load those values. The whole job might take you 30 minutes.
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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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I love the idea of doing all work myself. So if a tune is needed, I like the idea of the V&H fuel Pak. How do they offer the parameters? Do you tell them what's on the bike and they go from there? Will they work with you if you're not running V&H products on the bike?
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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 10:35 AM
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Yes and yes. If you aren't using Vance and Hines products you just call their tech line, tell them what you have, and they'll figure out what values you should enter.

It might be a good idea to figure out what you want to use and call them before you buy any parts, just to make sure they haven't run into any issues with your particular set-up before.
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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-16-2016, 02:32 PM
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It's a shame I didn't know you might be wanting to change things. I just sold a Superchips Vigilante that basically stores your current tune and you then can reflash another. It took the Harley Stage 1 on my 07, stored it and the similar tune they had screamed in comparison. Now it did cost a couple miles per gallon but it was great. That company though has already seen the "map" market was a hornet's nest and stopped support. So it's a what's there, is there thing now. Since we had the same machine it would have been perfect for you after you changed intake and exhaust. They actually made a change based on my input so the tune I was running was amazing.

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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-17-2016, 11:28 AM
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I've done an aftermarket exhaust and high flow filter on my XR1200 and had the dealer install and dyno tune with the Harley super tuner, they've done a terrible job both times, first time way lean, seemed to run well. Second time after a crash with new more open exhaust replacement from the same company (Termignoni) way rich, never seemed to warm up properly and only seemed to run right over fifty or more MPH. Finally found an independent shop just down the road from the dealer that got it straightened out and now it runs much better, not perfectly but much better. Not that I'm an expert like Eye but it is probably more important to find the better technician than to worry about what parts you need first before spending hundreds of dollars. It also could have been that the XR1200 was just too different of a model that even factory trained techs didn't quite have the experience to tune it right.
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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-17-2016, 12:18 PM Thread Starter
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I'm quite mechanically inclined, so doing the work myself is no problem. I like the idea of being able to do it all myself in my own garage on my lift. If I do decide to take it to a professional, I do know a few good independents I'd feel confident with, and we have a Harley dealership about 45 minutes from here that is well known for good tuning. They set up race bikes in addition to street bikes. But again, if I can do it in my garage, even better. I've been doing some reading on the Fuel Pak, and it seems like a good product. I like that if I do my modifications in stages over time, I don't have to keep going back to a pro mechanic to have it tuned ($$$).

Hey Eye, I know most modification brands are highly opinionated, but what do you feel about the Supertrapp Supermeg? Any experience with it or no? I ride two up most of the time, in the 2000-3000rpm range. This looks like it is a very tune-able exhaust system, and I should be able to boost low end torque easily with it. And almost as importantly we don't want excessive noise. The Supermegg appears to offer it's best low end with the quietest noise level of the major 2-into-1 systems.
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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-17-2016, 02:39 PM
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I've always liked the Supertrapp stuff, and I love the sound of a megaphone muffler anyway. The Supermeg could very likely be my second choice if I was looking for a new setup for my own bike. I've worked on just a few Supertrapp exhausts on carburetor bikes, tuning them by the seat of the pants, but most of the time the guy that was a very good Dyno operator did them. I've never tuned a EFI bike with a Supertrapp muffler.

If you go that route it might be an even better idea to call V&H ahead of time to make sure they have worked out the values for that exhaust. So if you add or take out a few plates in the muffler you'll know if you need to change any values in the Fuel Pak or not. Or, do you start with values based on a certain number of plates, leave all the values the same, but simply adjust the number of plates? That might get a little confusing.

The only down side I see to the Fuel Pak is that Vance and Hines will not tell you what each value number controls, so there's no "tweaking" it on your own, as far as I can tell. Normally you'd think that a certain value would set the idle AFR, then next might be at ten percent throttle, the next at 20 percent, and so on, but it doesn't work that way. I think they purposely have them out of sequence.
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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-17-2016, 03:17 PM Thread Starter
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The latest Fuel Pak has the auto tune feature, which according to them will tune computer controlled engines as you ride over the course of a few hundred miles. It allows for generic exhaust systems that they don't have a specific map developed for yet, for example. I downloaded the app for my phone and have been paying with it in demo mode. But I will be calling them before I order anything. I'm not too interested in the detailed, fine tuning, so knowing the specific parameters isn't a deal breaker for me.
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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-17-2016, 04:04 PM
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What I like about the Fuel Pak original is that it's super easy to install and program, and it's about 100 bucks cheaper then the Fuel Pak 3 with the auto-tuning feature. For the average rider they're both going to about equally well.

With your Supertrapp though, the FP3 might be the more reasonable choice. Let us know how it works out.
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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
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I emailed V&H last night asking about the SuperTrapp. Received a reply first thing this morning. I like the quick attention so far from them.

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Yes, you would need the Fuelpak FP3 part number 66007. The FP3 has Autotune, which will allow the bike and tuner to learn your setup and riding style. I would suggest starting with the map for Vance and Hines Pro Pipe 2-1, then run Autotune off that map to get everything fine tuned for your bike.
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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 12:13 PM
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Sounds like a plan.


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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 02:04 PM
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I haven't heard how well the auto-tuning modules do. There is a lot of information being fed back to the ECM from various sensors, so I would think if programmed correctly, the computer could figure out the best fuel mixture from there.

I have read a little about "wide band" O2 sensors that can detect a larger variation of fuel mixture than standard stock ones. I don't know if they are still needed in the newest motorcycles with added programmable ECM.

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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 03:04 PM
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I haven't heard much about how the FP3's, or other similar units, are actually working out either.

You are correct in that some of the newer EFI systems with the wide band O2 sensors can self adjust to cover a wider range of changes then the older narrow band ones could. Also, the ECM itself has been getting better programming to allow it to "self learn." With the '16's, for example, as long as you don't take out the cat or change cams, you can pretty much put on any pipe and intake combination and not have to tune it. (There are some combinations that will require tuning, but I'm not sure what those are yet.)

His 07 doesn't have that though.
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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 03:06 PM
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I haven't heard how well the auto-tuning modules do. There is a lot of information being fed back to the ECM from various sensors, so I would think if programmed correctly, the computer could figure out the best fuel mixture from there.

I have read a little about "wide band" O2 sensors that can detect a larger variation of fuel mixture than standard stock ones. I don't know if they are still needed in the newest motorcycles with added programmable ECM.
They are on my Indian. Unfortunately, you have to weld in different bungs from factory 12mm to 18mm. Or you could spend 3 times that for 12mm wide band o2 sensors but the kits come with 18mm. At least that's what is available now for these machines.

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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 06:16 PM Thread Starter
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As to the FP3 results, I'm seeing mostly happy reports on the HD forums. A few people claim to have had problems, but the overwhelming response is positive. I'll be doing this as soon as I convince my wife to let me drop $1300 on everything I want/need for this. I will certainly report back, positive or not.
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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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That didn't take long. Just finished ordering the exhaust, FP3, and a Kuryakyn Street Sleeper high flow air intake from Dennis Kirk.com. Even saved $150 or so by having them price match the exhaust that was cheaper at one of their competitors. Arrive Wednesday. I'll start putting everything on the bike this weekend. I'm on call for work, and it is supposed to be hot, so hopefully I have the time.
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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-18-2016, 11:19 PM
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Grab an extra pair of exhaust gaskets and you should be all ready to bolt everything up. Have fun!

Kury uses K&N filters, so if you don't have any already, you might want to pick up some filter element cleaner and the filter oil before you do your first service with the new set-up.
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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-19-2016, 04:21 AM
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You'll love it. Especially once you get a good tune in it. It makes suck a difference in those engines. A good tune releases almost all their potential. Cams would do the rest. Riding 2 up you may still want to go that route.

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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-20-2016, 09:59 PM Thread Starter
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Spend about an hour last night pulling off the old exhaust and air cleaner. Found one of the O2 sensors didn't want it's threads anymore. And both front exhaust studs came out of the block instead of the nut coming off. No big deal. Grab new ones from the dealer.

All the parts came into day. I spent about 3.5 hours installing the exhaust, intake, and flashing the computer. Started up the bike. First, it's definitely a different sound, the 2-into-1. I can understand why some don't like it. You lose a lot of the typical HD sound. To me it sounds a lot like an old muscle car with a built motor. I love it. It looks mean on the bike, too.

Then I took it for a ride. Holy crap! It's a new bike. The low end is simply a completely different animal. This is exactly what I was hoping for. The exhaust has a great bark when you grab a handful of throttle, but otherwise is very docile and comfortable on the highway. I used 16 of the 20 supplied disks.

The V&H FP3 couldn't be easier to use. I flashed the bike in no time. I used the Pro Pipe map, as it is closest to the Supertrapp I have. I have a bit of popping during deceleration. Not a lot, but enough to annoy me. Tech support is excellent. They are sure that using the Auto Tune will clear it up. We'll see. There is a feature in the device to help curb this popping, too, but they said do the auto tune and use that feature as a last resort.

Don't worry, the bike's getting a bath next. Still dirty from our last ride up north. There was no point in washing it before my grubby hands were all over it for this work.
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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 04:30 AM
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I bet it does sound great but just looks odd with only one exhaust. Hope the auto-tune works. I know what you mean about it being irritating. Mine started popping shortly after my last service. Did some investigation and found my front exhaust header was a bit loose or at least the nuts were. Tightened them and popping stopped. I'm still searching and waiting for the fuel controller/reflasher that I feel good with on mine.

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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
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Yes, that's another thing some guys don't like, the unbalanced look of one exhaust tip. So much that most manufacturers, including Supertrapp, make dummy pipes to install to give the bike a balanced look. But if there's one thing I dislike most, it is adding significant expense and weight to a bike for pure poser needs. I've seen where some guys will clean up their rear fender by moving the plate down to under the left bag. It looks good and more balanced. For me it's just not a big deal. It looks good enough, and the performance increase seems worth it.
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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 10:36 AM
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Yep, that's why 2 into 1 into 2 sell so much better. I bet you could leave your old one just hang there on the left and people wouldn't give a second thought.

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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 02:04 PM
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A well designed 2 into 1 will give you the best performance of any exhaust for those V-twins.
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I didn't really look closely at my 07 Harley but I have looked closely at this Indian and it's basically a 2 into 1. The left side has very little going through it. At idle anyway. But I know it's nothing like a true 2 into 1 either but it sure does sound sweet.

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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-21-2016, 08:49 PM Thread Starter
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The stock '07 Ultra is the same way. The left muffler is connected to the rear header pipe, and really gets little flow. The majority of flow from both cylinders is through the right muffler. It's kind of like a 2-into-1.5. And it is interesting to see that HD used a lot of hard corners when they designed the system. Just looking at it you can tell it's not the greatest flowing system.

Just got back from a short ride with one if my kids. This bike really puts a smile on my face now.

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The stock '07 Ultra is the same way. The left muffler is connected to the rear header pipe, and really gets little flow. The majority of flow from both cylinders is through the right muffler. It's kind of like a 2-into-1.5. And it is interesting to see that HD used a lot of hard corners when they designed the system. Just looking at it you can tell it's not the greatest flowing system.

Just got back from a short ride with one if my kids. This bike really puts a smile on my face now.
I kinda figured it was like that cause I think I read somewhere to be sure you didn't reverse the mufflers because one was more free flowing than the other but I might have misread too. I do that sometimes.

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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-22-2016, 06:21 AM
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I think the 2 into 1 systems look better on the touring bikes.

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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-23-2016, 07:35 PM Thread Starter
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I don't know how I managed 40mpg on this last tank of fuel. 3/4 of the tank was with this new exhaust. I cannot keep my wrist out of the throttle, it sounds so good. I averaged about that with the OEM exhaust.

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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-23-2016, 10:49 PM
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I think somebody's in love.
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post #31 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-23-2016, 11:28 PM
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It is a lot throatier without being a lot louder.


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post #32 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-24-2016, 03:59 AM
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Sounds a lot like Cobras to me which I thought were the best sounding I ever heard.

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post #33 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-24-2016, 08:39 AM Thread Starter
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It is a lot throatier without being a lot louder.
That is what I was hoping for. We tour on this bike, and I didn't want the annoyance of a very loud exhaust system making our trips less pleasant.

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Sounds a lot like Cobras to me which I thought were the best sounding I ever heard.
Those sound nice. I like a deep growling exhaust like that. My "before" sound clips are the kind of sound I don't care for. It had a sharp, higher pitched crack when you got on the exhaust. It wasn't pleasant to the ear.



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I think somebody's in love.
Perhaps a bit. Maybe I am biased, but this is the best sounding exhaust I have heard. Even better than the one of my old CB750, which I love.

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post #34 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-06-2016, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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The jury is in with the verdict. After almost 1000 miles the exhaust, intake, and reprogram has made a huge difference. Low end power is significantly increased. Much less feathering of the clutch to get rolling from a stop while loaded up. Acceleration time, such as highway on-ramps, is much better. High RPM power has not been changed much, as the exhaust and tuning targeted the low range (1500-4000 rpm), where a sane person rides a touring bike 90% of the time. 6th gear, which was useless below 60mph before, is now quite usable, and even non-hurried passes can be done without a downshift now. Another big advantage is that the free flowing engine and slightly more rich fuel ratio has reduced engine heat greatly. The air cooled engine produced much less heat on the legs at stopped or slow speeds. Despite it being a good chunk of money, this was money very well spent. It is like a new bike. I've gone from the opinion that this bike will do for a few years, to it being a bike I have no desire to replace any time soon.
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post #35 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-06-2016, 02:52 PM
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There's nothing quite like the satisfaction of getting your bike dialed in just exactly like YOU want it.

Now, throw away all of your parts catalogs and never again ready any bike magazines or anything like that. No Easy Riders, no Iron Horse, nothing.

(Psst. Baker is developing a new gear set with different ratios, and actual over drive, and helical cut gears.)
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post #36 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-06-2016, 08:45 PM Thread Starter
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Ha. No. We're going to have the seat rebuilt this coming off season. Yes, we have off season up here. After that it should be left alone.

Maybe cams.

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post #37 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-07-2016, 03:59 AM
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Garage
I never saw the need for cams after I got my 07 running a good map. BUT I was riding solo. Two up you should see a benefit with cams. Depending on which ones of course and there are a couple good ones from what I was able to see. Be careful though. There are a lot of opinions out there about what's good. But it seems like there were a couple that kept popping up as favorable.

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Do everything like your life depends on it. It COULD!

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post #38 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-07-2016, 08:11 AM
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Yeah, you're doomed.

If you want to get the most benefit you can out of new cams you'll want to do some head work. If you take a ride down to Viola there's a lot of good technical advice there.
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