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post #1 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-19-2013, 06:35 PM Thread Starter
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post #2 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-19-2013, 06:47 PM
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Just what big Harley's need. More heat on your legs. That's one reason I don't ride mine much in the summer.
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post #3 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 06:03 AM
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Yeah, water cooled heads on the bigger faired bikes. i ran into a guy from Harley Australia on my ride on Sunday and he said that harley were announcing it in a day or so. Not having Milwaukee oil in my veins I didn't consider it important.
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post #4 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 08:31 AM
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Yep the Bigger Tourer and the Trike are water cooled these pics sent to me by a Guy who works at the HD Dealer close by ..



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post #5 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 10:43 AM
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EPA rules on emissions just make air cooling impractical. It was going to happen eventually. Both VW and Porsche had the same slow movement away from air cooling toward water cooled engines.
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post #6 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 11:09 AM
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I think Harley did a great job of incorporating it. From what I have seen, right next to the radiator in the fairing is a fan to exhaust the heat away from the rider.

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post #7 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 11:11 AM
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I'd call it more of a "cooling assist" then an actual water cooled engine.

(Right now the engineers at Indian are saying, "What?? Oh, sunnuvabitch...Harley's are STILL cooler then we are!")
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post #8 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 11:16 AM
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HD even has a cool name for it..."Precision cooling."

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post #9 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnnystriple View Post
Just what big Harley's need. More heat on your legs. That's one reason I don't ride mine much in the summer.
Well it's better than the big blast of heat my Honda used to give me at stops when the fans kick on.
I do think it's a huge slap in the face to Poladian or indiaris or what ever that thing is.


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post #10 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 01:43 PM
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But it takes away all of that "awesome storage in the lowers!!!
J/K, except for gloves and gum that area was useless.

BTW "(Right now the engineers at Indian are saying, "What?? Oh, sunnuvabitch...Harley's are STILL cooler then we are!")

Very clever.


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post #11 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 03:19 PM
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Meh... just get a feckin V-rod! To heck with liquid cooled heads. Go liquid cooling all the way.

In the end, HD will go all liquid cooling. Regulations will force it to happen. Might as well get it done, and do it now, instead of dragging azz about it.

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post #12 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 04:58 PM
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Meh... just get a feckin V-rod! To heck with liquid cooled heads. Go liquid cooling all the way.

In the end, HD will go all liquid cooling. Regulations will force it to happen. Might as well get it done, and do it now, instead of dragging azz about it.
Would 'NOT" be wise at this point, you'd be amazed at how many HD loyalists are completely against this.


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post #13 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 05:10 PM
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Was reading about this on a news site and saw where they said

"One more significant item of note – Harley-Davidson‘s first liquid-cooled engines."

I was like "What?" Is the V-Rod not considered to be a Harley or something?
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post #14 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
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Was reading about this on a news site and saw where they said

"One more significant item of note – Harley-Davidson‘s first liquid-cooled engines."

I was like "What?" Is the V-Rod not considered to be a Harley or something?
It most certainly is.

But that's another example of people talking about Harleys that know absolutely nothing about them. It happens a lot.
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post #15 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 06:03 PM
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It most certainly is.

But that's another example of people talking about Harleys that know absolutely nothing about them. It happens a lot.
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Originally Posted by SpitefulHam View Post
Was reading about this on a news site and saw where they said

"One more significant item of note – Harley-Davidson‘s first liquid-cooled engines."

I was like "What?" Is the V-Rod not considered to be a Harley or something?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the V-Rod engine developed by Porsche, not Harley? I am certainly not an HD intellectual, but I thought I heard that when they first came out...
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post #16 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 06:10 PM
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They developed it with Porsche, but I believe it was based on their old VR1000 race engine they used for a bit.

Having to go liquid cooled is, at least as it seems right now, inevitable. Though, I expect them to resist as long as possible as it's not what their customers want for the most part.
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post #17 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 08:15 PM
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They developed it with Porsche, but I believe it was based on their old VR1000 race engine they used for a bit.
.
^^^There it is. If you look at the VR1000 engine you can definitely see where the V-rod engine came from. (I've only seen pictures of the VR1000 and haven't seen an actual engine.) I was told that Porsche Engineering helped with the design of the heads and with the gear box.
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post #18 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 08:49 PM
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Topic is getting interesting .. Lot of good facts here .. But many Die Hard fans of HD are Gnashing their Teeth ..
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post #19 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 08:54 PM
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I bet within a couple years the aftermarket will offer replacement heads for those who want to ditch it...
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post #20 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 09:41 PM
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Heard it's got something to do with emission standards being tightened.
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post #21 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 09:43 PM
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I'm sure there are some folks that are groaning about it, but there's still a few around who think the Evo is a better motor then the TC, or that Harley reached the peak of motor design with the Shovel. (Or the Pan, or the Knuckle, or the...)

I haven't heard anything very negative from the people I know that are really into engines in general and Harley's in particular though. If anything it's been leaning a little towards the positive. It's still a beloved air cooled engine, they just added a common sense addition, and did it in a way that's pretty unique.

As for aftermarket heads, yeah, someone probably will come out with those, but I'm not so sure it would be a good idea. That's a big ole engine in that touring bike, and it's got a lot of extra weight to haul around and a lot of air-obstructing crappola...er.....fairings and lowers and such. I think a little cooling assist is a good thing.

Makes me wonder though, if they're going to be coming out soon with an even bigger engine for the touring class?
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post #22 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 09:47 PM
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My HD riding friends seem "split" on it. Some are chomping at the bit to get on one, and think it's a great thing in the evolution of HD. Others are still complaining about HD putting EFI on their bikes, and still others won't ride anything with an EVO engine on it.

One thing is for certain...the aftermarket will very quickly make all kinds of mods available to appease the HD masses...
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post #23 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 10:16 PM
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Harley is the only manufacturer that cannot do anything right in the eyes of anyone. If they stay retro, all non-HD riders fault them as old tech. If they try to do something more modern (Vrod, XR1200), HD fans fault them and don't buy the bikes. I think this precision liquid cooling (because it cools specific, precision points in the engine) is a perfect step toward the inevitable. Emission standards will continue to tighten, and they will have to go full liquid someday. But this is a big step in that direction, without upsetting the loyalists.
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post #24 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the V-Rod engine developed by Porsche, not Harley? I am certainly not an HD intellectual, but I thought I heard that when they first came out...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmonSTART View Post
They developed it with Porsche, but I believe it was based on their old VR1000 race engine they used for a bit.

Having to go liquid cooled is, at least as it seems right now, inevitable. Though, I expect them to resist as long as possible as it's not what their customers want for the most part.
The V-Rod engine was originally designed by Erik Buell. It was intended for a fully faired super-bike.

Quote:
The liquid-cooled Harley V-Rod motor, developed by Harley-Davidson then made street legal according to the EPA by Porsche, was originally an Erik Buell project, designed for a fully faired AMA Superbike Buell by 1998.[8] Harley decided the engine should also be used in a sport-cruiser, then took over development, making it "too big, too heavy, too expensive and too late" for Buell.[8]
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buell_M...ef-cw0510_8-29

There is also a video floating around where Erik takes some engineer students through his shop with the first prototype mounted on what looks like a Buell Tube frame chassis. That's why the first gen V-Rods were 1130cc instead of 1250cc... In Super-Bike V-Twins are allowed an extra 200cc to compensate for the lack of RPMs among other things....

On to the OP:

The new "air and precision cooled" bikes sound like a great compromise and should keep the "HD Purists" from freaking out....

"Political Correctness is tyranny with manners."
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post #25 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 10:42 PM
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Lurch, you are right about that. HD will take a lot if heat this year, but with Victory and others making quality bikes HD had to step it up. I looked at some of the 14s and HD did a great job with them. All these great bikes make us the consumer the big winner no matter what you ride.

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post #26 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 10:49 PM
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And while I think there are those HD purists out there that do not approve of the move to liquid cooling, I think HD is looking at the type of buyer who loves the traditional look, but isn't so particular on the whole air/oil/liquid cooling debate, and wants some of the higher tech mechanical and entertainment features found on other bikes.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the Sportster, Dyna and Softail lines - will some models remain air cooled, or will they also (eventually) go liquid cooled? With the lower fairing you can "camouflage" the radiator. On bikes without a lower fairing it will be much more obvious, unless the HD engineers have some tricks up their sleeves.

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post #27 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 11:05 PM
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I still wonder why HD does not incorporate a subtle oil cooler into their bikes to help meet EPA regs. I think the oil cooler on Victorys are not too ubtrusive and Honda used one on the modern CB 1100. I still think of the CB 1100 as air cooled but it is oil and air cooled.

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post #28 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-20-2013, 11:48 PM
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EPA rules on emissions just make air cooling impractical.
Why? How does air cooling go against emissions laws?
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post #29 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 12:35 AM
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The biggest problem for air cooled engines is the temperature swing they have can be dramatic. This makes it hard to keep it in its efficiency sweet spot, for lack of a better term. The engines are also generally a bit more loose in tolerance to accommodate these drastic temperature swings. Add to that that with EPA regulation getting tighter and tighter, the engines need to start running leaner and leaner to meet them. At some point you start having issues with heat. Air cooled engines cannot dissipate the heat as well as liquid.

Some of these things can be helped with our modern technologies. But at some point it's just going to go all liquid, even if for an economic standpoint. Water cooling your engine is cheaper than developing and installing electrical sensors and computers, etc.
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post #30 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 12:45 AM
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Why? How does air cooling go against emissions laws?
I'm no engineer, but from what I have read is that emissions control standards are such that in order for motorcycles to pass they have to be set to run very lean, and lean means increased engine temperatures. And increased engine temps means potential breakdown of the engine unless the engine can be cooled down. Liquid cooled engines can counteract the heat created, but there is nothing an air cooled engine can do, other than being ridden to pass air over the engine, to cool the engine down. Newer Harley engines have a feature that actually shuts down the rear cylinder when temps get to a certain point to save the engine from overheating and breaking down. And as they have increased their engine sizes to 103" and 110" the problem only gets worse.

Someone else can probably provide a more educated response, but this is my understanding of the dilemma HD is running into.

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post #31 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 12:54 AM
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I'm no engineer, but from what I have read is that emissions control standards are such that in order for motorcycles to pass they have to be set to run very lean, and lean means increased engine temperatures. And increased engine temps means potential breakdown of the engine unless the engine can be cooled down. Liquid cooled engines can counteract the heat created, but there is nothing an air cooled engine can do, other than being ridden to pass air over the engine, to cool the engine down. Newer Harley engines have a feature that actually shuts down the rear cylinder when temps get to a certain point to save the engine from overheating and breaking down. And as they have increased their engine sizes to 103" and 110" the problem only gets worse.

Someone else can probably provide a more educated response, but this is my understanding of the dilemma HD is running into.
All the more reason for HD to consider a subtle oil cooler. Not sure how the HD faithful would feel about that though.

How does the stage one kit compensate for this? Does the exhaust/intake/ECU flash do something "magical"? Is it that the bike no longer runs as lean but might not actually meet the EPA regs?

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post #32 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 01:03 AM
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All the more reason for HD to consider a subtle oil cooler. Not sure how the HD faithful would feel about that though.

How does the stage one kit compensate for this? Does the exhaust/intake/ECU flash do something "magical"? Is it that the bike no longer runs as lean but might not actually meet the EPA regs?
Good points - I have a Jagg Oil Cooler on my Road Glide - it looks great on my bike, and it's fan assisted - when the temperature reaches a certain point a fan comes on to help the oil cooler even more.

If you remove the catalytic converter from the exhaust by replacing it with a catless pipe or remove it from the stock pipe, that will remove some of the felt heat. I don't know if it lowers the engine heat though. But then you have potential warranty issues and if your bike is emissions tested it will likely fail the test. The ECU flash from the dealer will not make the bike run less lean - the dealer is required by law to maintain EPA emissions standards. You can always get a tuner and have someone (not a dealer) tune it to make it run rich, and that will cool the engine down, but again, if you are somewhere where the bike is emissions tested that can be a problem.

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post #33 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
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I'm no engineer, but from what I have read is that emissions control standards are such that in order for motorcycles to pass they have to be set to run very lean, and lean means increased engine temperatures. And increased engine temps means potential breakdown of the engine unless the engine can be cooled down. Liquid cooled engines can counteract the heat created, but there is nothing an air cooled engine can do, other than being ridden to pass air over the engine, to cool the engine down. Newer Harley engines have a feature that actually shuts down the rear cylinder when temps get to a certain point to save the engine from overheating and breaking down. And as they have increased their engine sizes to 103" and 110" the problem only gets worse.

Someone else can probably provide a more educated response, but this is my understanding of the dilemma HD is running into.
The rear cyl deactivation is there as a comfort feature for the passengers who in years past complained about their legs feeling the heat. When the new touring frame was released in 09 they incorporated the cyc deactivation and re- routed the exhaust under the bike rather than under the passengers leg as it had been on the previous frame. The cyl deactivation can be disabled if the rider so chooses. According to HD it is comfort only, not a motor safety situation. That being said, I really don't understand why anyone would disable the system. It works great and its fairly seemless, you barley notice it kick on.

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post #34 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 03:39 AM
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More interesting for my money is the new forks and the fact that there going to hooked up to a proper triple and held there with real bolts...

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post #35 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
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Harley is the only manufacturer that cannot do anything right in the eyes of anyone. If they stay retro, all non-HD riders fault them as old tech. If they try to do something more modern (Vrod, XR1200), HD fans fault them and don't buy the bikes. I think this precision liquid cooling (because it cools specific, precision points in the engine) is a perfect step toward the inevitable. Emission standards will continue to tighten, and they will have to go full liquid someday. But this is a big step in that direction, without upsetting the loyalists.
Rumour has it VRSC will be dis-continued after 2014 think "keith and the concentrated product".Agree with your "inevitable" comment its coming for sure.Plenty of manufacturers suffer the same plight as Harley from time to time think back to the release of the new Triumphs and all the foot stamping from so called purists,wasnt long before many of them were once again followers.
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post #36 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 05:21 AM
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Meh... just get a feckin V-rod! To heck with liquid cooled heads. Go liquid cooling all the way.

In the end, HD will go all liquid cooling. Regulations will force it to happen. Might as well get it done, and do it now, instead of dragging azz about it.
Have to agree with that ...
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post #37 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 05:30 AM
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All the more reason for HD to consider a subtle oil cooler. Not sure how the HD faithful would feel about that though.

How does the stage one kit compensate for this? Does the exhaust/intake/ECU flash do something "magical"? Is it that the bike no longer runs as lean but might not actually meet the EPA regs?
Like this one?

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post #38 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 08:08 AM
Too cheap to buy new bolts..
 
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post #39 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Lurch77 View Post
The biggest problem for air cooled engines is the temperature swing they have can be dramatic. This makes it hard to keep it in its efficiency sweet spot, for lack of a better term. The engines are also generally a bit more loose in tolerance to accommodate these drastic temperature swings. Add to that that with EPA regulation getting tighter and tighter, the engines need to start running leaner and leaner to meet them. At some point you start having issues with heat. Air cooled engines cannot dissipate the heat as well as liquid.

Some of these things can be helped with our modern technologies. But at some point it's just going to go all liquid, even if for an economic standpoint. Water cooling your engine is cheaper than developing and installing electrical sensors and computers, etc.
Ducat is facing the same problems. The Europeans got on the emissions bandwagon way after we in the US did. From what I've been reading, next year is the last year for air cooled Ducatis, they're all going to get radiators, including the Monsters.
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post #40 of 69 (permalink) Old 08-21-2013, 10:40 AM
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Like this one?

Love your bike zmago!

2010 Road Glide Custom FLTRX
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